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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1  Previous   Next
Pan & Scan vs Full Screen
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDragon 6
Registered: 2/18/2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Posts: 281
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Here is what the rules states:

"Pan & Scan              Films that were shot at an aspect wider than 1.33:1, and then cropped to 1.33:1 for presentation on the DVD."

all these films were origanily in an aspect greater than 1.33:1. They were shot in widescreen format. Here is the rules for full frame:

"Full Frame                Films that were filmed at 1.33:1 or Academy Ratio and presented as such.
Films presented in Open Matte and TV series, unless otherwise noted.
Computer generated animation re-rendered to 1.33:1 (even if the original theatrical release was widescreen)."

this is also from the rules:

"DVD boxes frequently incorrectly list a film as Full Frame when it is actually Pan & Scan (P&S) due to the negative image that P&S has. Please use the correct terminology in DVD Profiler."

Movies that were shot for the theater had an aspect ratio greater than 1.33:1. I have never seen or heard of a film in the theaters in full frame format. I have submitted some profiles for correction and people are voting NO because of what is stated on the case.

Are we going by what is on the case now?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 5,459
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It depends on the film.
And it's certainly very rare these days, but in the past almost all films were shot in academy ratio. So they would all be full frame.
We also use full frame when a film is shot in academy ratio, and projected cropped in the cinema (Stanley Kubrick did this a lot).
If you don't know for sure that a film is pan & scan or full frame, go with what's on the cover until you know which one is right.
Aspect ratio is very complicated, and very difficult to explain in words, but if you have any other questions I'm sure we'll try and answer them.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
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Quoting Dragon73:
Quote:
Movies that were shot for the theater had an aspect ratio greater than 1.33:1. I have never seen or heard of a film in the theaters in full frame format.



Kubrick filmed "Eyes Wide Shut" at 1.33:1, and it was released in theaters at 1.85:1, and the DVD is at 1.33:1, as wished by the director. So it is full frame, not P&S.

Just an example...
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorbigdaddyhorse
Registered: June 21, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 2,621
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Most 1.85, 1.78 and 1.66 ratio films in 1.33 are open matte, although there are excpetions like "King Of New York" and "Hard Boiled" which were "hard-matted" to 1.85. Hard mattes mean the theater projection isn't doing the matting like on most, the matte is on the film frames. This makes the 1.33 versions pan and scan as the extra picture info is gone and can't be used. I read something about this being an expensive process which is why it's pretty rare to see and over 90% of 1.85 films are open matte FF when shown 1.33.
If a disc has both versions compare a couple scenes. If there's extra picture on the top and bottom it's open matte, which equals Full Frame. If there's no extra on the top and/or bottom and lots missing from the sides, then it's P&S.

This is a good place to start. Maybe someday I'll feel brave enough to try and explain the 2.35 ratio films which were shot with super-35.    

Screw it, I'll try quickly.
Super-35 gives the option of opening up mattes but usually ends up being something else, a cross of FF and P&S. If you have the T2 Ultimate edition, there's a great demo in the supplements showing a scene being transfered for home video. Look under "home video" or "transfering to video", something like that. Haven't watched in a while but it taught me more in 5 minutes than hours of web surfing did. Bottom line is it's all over the place. A few seconds might be the whole frame, then a couple seconds later it's zoomed in tight enough to cut picture from all 4 sides. The 1.33 box is constantly moving and chaging size all around the frame to include whatever the monkey doing the tranfer considers the "most important part of the picture". Casino suffered from this as well. If you still have a 1.33 VHS, compare that to the WS dvd. The Matrix movies are also Super-35.

One last tip on spotting Super-35. If the open and end credits are WS, the movie is NOT S-35 and is Panavision, which means it's all P&S. End credits are the best tell as they sometimes will open up the opening credits or put the words in different sizes and spots on the frame. If the end credits go to WS, it's definitly P&S. If they don't, then the matte has just been opened up and it's Super-35.
Also on long shots, anamorphic film (like Panavision) will make straight lines bend inward near the sides on longer shots. I can't think of a perfect example right now but have seen it in most John Carpenter films, esp. in Prince of Darkness (not a great example as it's not a huge movie many will have). There's a long shot down the street and the light posts on the edge of the frame are bending inward big time. Most examples are more subtitle but if you're looking for it you can see it easily.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVega
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 585
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This site has helped me in the past.

And it has a great example of the Super-35 T2 bigdaddy mentioned if you scroll down to the bottom.
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" - Douglas Bader
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLJG
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 950
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As someone who voted no on one of your submissions then switched to yes after a PM, I can tell you that you're getting no's partly b/c you're not giving a source for your claims.  The one I voted on just said you were changing it b/c of the rules.  No reason was given for how you proved that that case was wrong.  It turned out you had 2 programs that you were able to verify that the movie was p&s vs full frame and I voted yes once you changed your contrib notes to reflect this.

For any change to a profile, you must submit your sources, be it the dvd, the cover or an outside source.
Lori
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwidescreenforever
Under A Double DoubleW
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Canada Posts: 5,481
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Dragon73:
Quote:
Movies that were shot for the theater had an aspect ratio greater than 1.33:1. I have never seen or heard of a film in the theaters in full frame format.



Kubrick filmed "Eyes Wide Shut" at 1.33:1, and it was released in theaters at 1.85:1, and the DVD is at 1.33:1, as wished by the director. So it is full frame, not P&S.

Just an example...


My edition of Eyes Wide Shut in the current Kubrick Box set colleciton has EWS (upc 085391186182)
listed at 1.78:1    and I see that Full Metal Jacket is also at 1.78:1  and the Shining is also same ratio. Clockwork Orange as always is at 1.66:1..    .
In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.

Terry
 Last edited: by widescreenforever
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantBattling Butler
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 811
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This explanation of anamorphic format is also worth reading when considering modern films

DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnolesrule
Registered: 09/21/2000
Registered: March 15, 2007
United States Posts: 366
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Yeah, there seems to be some confusion about Kubrick films. After he saw a butchered P&S version of one of his films on TV, he shot open matte for his final 3 films in order to protect for TV presentation, but that was in the days before 16x9 TVs were common, up to and including EWS, which was released in 1999.

How many of you had a widescreen TV in 1999?

Some people have interpretted this to mean that 4x3 was his preferred presentation format for these films, and that is not correct. P. 452 of the Stanley Kubrick Archives book contains a shot design drawing for a shot in The Shining with notes to remind the crew to compose the shot for 1.85:1 but to "protect" the full 1.33:1 frame, which was his policy for The Shining, FMJ and EWS.

That's why those 3 movies were originally released on DVD at 1.33:1, under the  erronious belief that it's what Kubrick wanted, even on 16x9 televisions.

This new collection finally updates the films to the 1.85:1 (well, 1.78, but in reality that's close enough) composition that Kubrick intended his films to be viewed at.
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