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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Need some backup here for others who don't understand enhanced widescreen |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,494 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus 69: Quote: The zoom function does not correct the issue. It makes it less noticeable, but it still isn't correct. I have 3 different types of zoom on my TV and my eyes still notice the difference. If I want to watch them in the correct aspect ratio, I have to pillarbox them and that is something I am no longer willing to do. I have a stack, that is unfortunately growing, of DVDs I can no longer watch because I can't stand the vertical 'squish'.
You are talking about letterbox movies? .., or any of the older 1:33 titles..? They are bringing out more and more of the older classics on Bluray such as GWTW and Wizard of Oz..later this year .. They will have to be pillarboxed .. | | | In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.
Terry |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 630 |
| Posted: | | | | If you can't watch non anamorphic transfers without aspect ration distortion, then the only thing remaining is to find out if your DVD player or your TV needs to be thrown out. In case the relatively recent introduction of WS TV's in the US means no one has figured out making a TV for the US market that actually works, you should consider importing one. Only 3 zoom levels sounds very very suspicious. I have never seen a WS TV with less than 4 (now I think about it, I don't think I have seen one with more, but you never know). Typically you should have something like the following (names might be different based on brand obviously): * 4:3 - Puts black bars around the picture. This is typically the mode you will use for anything less than 16:9 unless it's anamorphic (4:3 never is, but 1.66:1 might be). * Zoom - stretches the picture evenly in all directions (and hence loosing the top and buttom). This is used for non anamorphic transfers of 16:9 and higher. * Wide - stretches horizontal only. This is used for anamorphic transfers (make sure your DVD player is configred for a WS TV). Don't know about US connections, but a European SCART connection will typically identify this to the TV so it switches automatically - but you can always override it. * Smart - A compromise setting used by non technical people who do not understand why the picture doesn't fill their screen. Typically it involves stretching the image horizontally (with most of the stretching done on the side of the image) and potentially a bit of cropping at top and bottom. If your missing zoom level is the last one, you should be fine (no one should use it anyway), but if it's one of the other three you have a problem. And no, I can't remember where I read it. I am sure I did read about it a decade ago, but since then it's just experience and general computer knowledge on video encoding I go by. | | | Regards Lars |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 630 |
| Posted: | | | | Hmm, just played around with my TV with an HDMI input, and there is indeed no 4:3 mode. I guess it's the DVD player that needs to be adjusted then (and if it can't be set correctly, throw it out). I use Windows Media Center for playback, so I can set the 4 zoom levels no matter what I play, but I do indeed do this on the Media Center box, not the TV. | | | Regards Lars | | | Last edited: by lmoelleb |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting widescreenforever: Quote:
You are talking about letterbox movies? .., or any of the older 1:33 titles..? They are bringing out more and more of the older classics on Bluray such as GWTW and Wizard of Oz..later this year .. They will have to be pillarboxed .. I am talking about widescreen, non-anamorphic, DVDs. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting lmoelleb: Quote: If you can't watch non anamorphic transfers without aspect ration distortion, then the only thing remaining is to find out if your DVD player or your TV needs to be thrown out. In case the relatively recent introduction of WS TV's in the US means no one has figured out making a TV for the US market that actually works, you should consider importing one. Every website I have looked at...and I have looked at quite a few recently to refresh my information on this subject...state that the zoom mode will allow the image to fill the screen, but at a significant hit to image quality. My own experiments agree with those findings. While the TV zoom is nice, it will never be as accurate as an anamorphic transfer...maybe my eyes are just more sensitive than your's are. Quote: Only 3 zoom levels sounds very very suspicious. I have never seen a WS TV with less than 4 (now I think about it, I don't think I have seen one with more, but you never know). Typically you should have something like the following (names might be different based on brand obviously): That figure was off the top of my head and, now that I have decided to check, wasn't accurate. As I said, I don't use the 'zoom' so made a mistake. My TV has 6 format settings: Standard, Expand, Zoom, Stretch, Stretch Plus & Narrow. Espand is the format reccomended for non-anamorphic, widescreen, DVDs. I am willing to admit that it may be my perception, but they never look quite right to me. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | My wide TV has 3 modes. It's missing the smart mode. I'm curious as to what sort of TV Unicus has. Essentially, "normal" DVDs treat the 720x480 (or 720x576 PAL) image as having a 4:3 aspect ratio, while "anamorphic" DVDs treat it as having a 16:9 aspect ration. None of these option use square pixels. Widescreen film can be letterboxed in a 4:3 fame, but this means 1/4 of the resolution is wasted on encoding black bars. Anamorphic transfers are preferred because they are effectively a higher resolution. a 1.85 movie will 346 pixel tall non-anamorphic and 461 pixels tall anamorphic for an NTSC DVD. This is the same image, just more detail.
Either option should work on any TV. If you have a 4:3 TV, you set this option in the player. The player then automatically converts all anamorphic images to non-anamorphic. It adds the black bars to the top and bottom of the signal and cuts the picture down to the appropriate number of scan lines. There are various ways of doing this. Some look better than others. 4:3 images are just displayed natively. That is: each row of pixels in the original is one scanline on the TV.
If you have a widescreen TV, you set this option at the player level. It then will output the DVD raw, which is to say each row of pixels is one scanline, regardless of how the DVD is encoded. At the TV level, you set the aspect ratio, choosing to display the picture as is and fill the screen for anamorphic widescreen, crop off the top and bottom for non-anamorphic widescreen or display in the center for 4:3 material.
Some older widescreen TVs assumed all progressive-scan material was supposed to be anamoprhic widescreen, which is definitely not the case. Those distorted all non-anamorphic material unless you turned off progressive scan. Alternatively, you could get a DVD player that would automatically fit all content in a widescreen frame. Curiously, while the spec requires players to be able to do this for 4:3 TV, it does not require this for 16:9 TVs and many don't so wide TV owners need to make sure either their player or TV can handle this correctly. Also, some 4:3 TVs had an option to do an anamorphic squeeze where the the scan lines were moved closer together and it just didn't paint the top and bottom of the screen. This allowed people to watch anamorphic movies at full resolution.
Modern HDTV and players using HDMI typically have the player upscale output to either 1920x1080 or 1280x720. Both use square pixels. As part of the scaling, images are fit to the correct portion of the frame. That is, the player will output non-anamorphic material as 1440x1080 inside a 1920x1980 frame with the sides left blank and anamorphic material as filling the entire 1920x1080 frame. Non-anamorphic widescreen should ideally take the 720x360 center of the frame and scale to 1920x1080, but most players don't have this option. You have to turn off upscaling, zoom (if your TV supports it) or settle for black bars on all sides.
Unicus, what are the model numbers of your TV and DVD player? I may be able to figure something out. Also, lmoelleb, what kind of TV do you have?
On a related note, why is it pretty much any Blu-ray player will upscale DVDs, but won't upscale SD material on Blu-rays? I get tired of reaching for the aspect ration button every time I watch special features. Also, why do we see non-anamorphic widescreen on Blu-ray? (TMNT deleted scenes, I am looking at you.) They have to know no one is watching that on a 4:3 TV. I can understand non-anamorphic material that was originally prepared for television broadcast or a laserdisc transfer or something where the publisher just doesn't want to spend the money to redo it, or in the early days of DVD, when most players did down-conversion by throwing out every fourth line and producers were worried abotu image quality. I don't get why anyone is still making such material. |
| Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
That figure was off the top of my head and, now that I have decided to check, wasn't accurate. As I said, I don't use the 'zoom' so made a mistake. My TV has 6 format settings: Standard, Expand, Zoom, Stretch, Stretch Plus & Narrow.
Espand is the format reccomended for non-anamorphic, widescreen, DVDs. I am willing to admit that it may be my perception, but they never look quite right to me. That's your problem. You should be using zoom. The hit to image quality is at the master level. There's nothing you can do at playback. Zoom (at least assuming they are using zoom to mean the same thing as most other manufacturers) will show a 4:3 frame at the correct aspect ratio with teh top and bottom cut off. Since these are just blank on non-anamorphic widescreen, you aren't missing anything. Expand probably is a cylindrical projection. You basically imagine a cylinder where viewed from the side, everything appears to be in the correct aspect ratio. You then unroll the cylinder and the resulting image is 16:9. This means the center is stretched very little and the sides a lot. It may crop a bit of the top and bottom, too. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 2,759 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting lmoelleb: Quote: If the aspect ration is less than 16:9 I watch it in 4:3 mode (and black bars on the side). If it's 16:9 or wider, I watch it in zoom mode. If it's in 1.66 and non-anamorphic, I watch it with black borders all the way around while I curse the idiot who mastered it. I would curse the idiot who has forgotten to implement 15:9 (or at least 14:9) zoom modes on your TV set. There are good reasons to master 1.66 non-anamorphic. |
| Registered: May 22, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,033 |
| Posted: | | | | Maybe I'm missing something, but it's my understanding that if your tv and player is set up correctly you don't need to make changes to compensate for the aspect ratio /anamorphic.
If you play an anamorphic source it will take up the whole screen (minus slight black bars on the top and bottom for anything over the aspect ratio of the tv.
if you watch a full screen (4:3) source it will have black bars on both sides, and the image will fill the center section of the screen.
if you have a non-anamorphic source of a widescreen movie it is essentially the same as the above full screen (4:3) source except that since the black bars are part of the picture you have black bars on all 4 sides.
On the last option you could use the TV's zoom function to eliminate\reduce the black bars but it is then using generally subpar algorithms and you will most likely notice a reduced image quality. However all these various zoom/stretch methods are just there for the people that would rather fill the entire screen at the expense of a distorted picture.
This is how my TV works anyway. I never change any settings and my picture is never distored/stretched no mater if its anamorphic or not. I also have Armageddon and The Hunt For Red October and these are not stretched when I watch them on my TV (which yes, is widescreen) but I do have black bars on all 4 sides. My dvd player is set to use a 16:9 display
-Agrare |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,494 |
| Posted: | | | | My TV - sony kdf462000e- (has for inputs for Coaxial/ RCA jacks and component and HDMI ., 1. for coaxial ( channel 3) , the image, no matter if it is letterboxed or not, and will give the actual ratio on my TV screen ( i.e. black bars top bottom and sides for widescreen). this will occur when I use the Normal button on my remote. I can then also use-- wide/ wide zoom/ and zoom . all of these are not good for the eye and the senses..
2. For HDMI and component video out the image is only accessible thru one of my many 7 inputs., but was told by my Sony Rep that 'input 7' is designed especially for HDPVR HDMI inputs, . which is true as I have tested the other inputs and found input 7 gave the Best Picture. I then use input 6 for my HDMI DVD #1 player / input 5 for HDPVR component jacks /input 4 for my other dvd #2 player that only has component out and RCA jacks out / Input 3 for my #3 VHS/DVD combo player that only has RCA jacks out , but when set up properly in menu will give anamorphic widescreen playback with RCA jacks out / Input 2 for SVHS jacks/ from the #2 DVD player / Input 1 is Coaxial/TV inputs .
Bottom line HDMI ( with audio 5.1 ) gives the best picture along with sound., Component gives as good (but only in my case RCA audio jacks) and surround sound . BY using the HDMI component factors the TV is set up thru its TV menu to always give full picture (on Normal) when 'detected' by signal and will give 1:78 image thru HD TV or DVD.. Full 16 x 9 image .
Wide will stretch sideways only and wide zoom will stretch up and down to give best image for non anamorphic images for the few DVDs I own in that format or for non HD TV letterboxing. (BTW Ever notice when you are watching HD TV with true 1:78 that when the numerous commercials come on the images are constantly changing from full to rectangle boxes back and forth? Those rectangular commercials are not anamorphic or true Digital HD ready . so HDMI or not, it will not matter.) Getting back- to wide zoom will give a more 'relaxed' feel to the screen when watching a very wide film that is not anamorphic but, will clip the top and bottom by a few degrees it will though fill the 16x9 screen ( 46inches in my case) more comfortable than just plain zoom. The zoom features on a DVD player? I stay away from them as the image is pix elated to a poor degree and is like sitting a foot away from the screen rather than 10 feet ..
and of course be sure to set up your DVD player to one of three: 16x9., letterbox 4:3/ or just plain 4:3 . If your TV is 16 x9 set the player for playback of anamorphic wide to that setting.. if your playing a 4:3 movie.., set the player to 4:3 . if the DVD is not anamorphic you could set as well the player to letterbox 4:3 .. Just remember to change back again .. | | | In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.
Terry | | | Last edited: by widescreenforever |
| Registered: May 9, 2008 | Posts: 467 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting widescreenforever: Quote: If your TV is 16 x9 set the player for playback of anamorphic wide to that setting.. if your playing a 4:3 movie.., set the player to 4:3 . if the DVD is not anamorphic you could set as well the player to letterbox 4:3 .. Just remember to change back again .. This should not be needed and I've never had to change the player setting based on the DVD/Blu-ray content. I've had Pioneer, RCA, Apex, Sony and other DVD players and current use a Sony BD & a PS3 players. The player should be configured to match the TV type only once and not need any changing ever as long as the DVDs are encoded correctly for the content. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
That's your problem. You should be using zoom. According to my manual, I should be using expand. Quote: The hit to image quality is at the master level. There's nothing you can do at playback. Again, based on everything I have read, the hit to image quality is caused by blowing up the image. My own tests confirm this. When viewed in pillarbox, the image looks fine. When expanded, there is a hit to the image quality. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,494 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting tkinnen: Quote: Quoting widescreenforever:
Quote: If your TV is 16 x9 set the player for playback of anamorphic wide to that setting.. if your playing a 4:3 movie.., set the player to 4:3 . if the DVD is not anamorphic you could set as well the player to letterbox 4:3 .. Just remember to change back again ..
This should not be needed and I've never had to change the player setting based on the DVD/Blu-ray content. I've had Pioneer, RCA, Apex, Sony and other DVD players and current use a Sony BD & a PS3 players. The player should be configured to match the TV type only once and not need any changing ever as long as the DVDs are encoded correctly for the content. That's true, it shouldn't be or have to be changed.. But if you ever want to compare them, you'll notice a slight differance .. | | | In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.
Terry |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Agrare: Quote: This is how my TV works anyway. I never change any settings and my picture is never distored/stretched no mater if its anamorphic or not. I also have Armageddon and The Hunt For Red October and these are not stretched when I watch them on my TV (which yes, is widescreen) but I do have black bars on all 4 sides. My dvd player is set to use a 16:9 display
-Agrare That is called 'pillarboxing'...which I mentioned in an earlier post...and, yes, I can do that, but that kinda defeats the purpose of buying a widescreen TV. So far, I have been able to replace the non-anamorphic DVDs...at least those that are important to me...with Blu-ray versions, eliminating the problem. The only exceptions, so far, have been 'Volcano' and 'Armageddon'. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
Quote:
That's your problem. You should be using zoom. According to my manual, I should be using expand.
Quote: The hit to image quality is at the master level. There's nothing you can do at playback. Again, based on everything I have read, the hit to image quality is caused by blowing up the image. My own tests confirm this. When viewed in pillarbox, the image looks fine. When expanded, there is a hit to the image quality. The image quality decresae isn't caused by blowing it up per se, but by the original being small. Blowing it up just makes it more noticeable. Either your manual is wrong or the manufacturer is using non-standard names for the modes. What kind of TV is it? | | | Last edited: by Ace_of_Sevens |
| Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,004 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Agrare: Quote: Maybe I'm missing something, but it's my understanding that if your tv and player is set up correctly you don't need to make changes to compensate for the aspect ratio /anamorphic.
If you play an anamorphic source it will take up the whole screen (minus slight black bars on the top and bottom for anything over the aspect ratio of the tv.
if you watch a full screen (4:3) source it will have black bars on both sides, and the image will fill the center section of the screen.
if you have a non-anamorphic source of a widescreen movie it is essentially the same as the above full screen (4:3) source except that since the black bars are part of the picture you have black bars on all 4 sides.
On the last option you could use the TV's zoom function to eliminate\reduce the black bars but it is then using generally subpar algorithms and you will most likely notice a reduced image quality. However all these various zoom/stretch methods are just there for the people that would rather fill the entire screen at the expense of a distorted picture.
This is how my TV works anyway. I never change any settings and my picture is never distored/stretched no mater if its anamorphic or not. I also have Armageddon and The Hunt For Red October and these are not stretched when I watch them on my TV (which yes, is widescreen) but I do have black bars on all 4 sides. My dvd player is set to use a 16:9 display
-Agrare That's true if you live in Europe and use an SCART connector or are using HDMI, DVI, VGA or some sort of upscaler. composite, S-video and component usually lack widescreen signalling, so the TV doesn't know what aspect ratio the signal is and you have to tell it. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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