Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 6 7 8 9 10 ...12  Previous   Next
Cast / Actor/Actress Database
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Sugar:

You certainly are expert on being insulting, attacking and combative. 90% of the time you don't understand what I am saying and just attack and insult

BTW I did not call Michael a foul-mouthed name now did I.

Skip


But you have to admit that many people react very similar to you here on the forums and they have done this for years. Have you ever wondered, why that is? Is it always them or is there at least a slight possibility that it could be you?

Your postings have a tendency of absolutism, you always know the right way and everyone else is simply wrong. I always have the feeling I can hear your heart racing when the others don't see your wisdom. It's mostly when YOU start to write random WORDS in all caps to make YOUR point.

(And to be perfectly honest: I think the idea that one company can sue another because they use foreign key constraints in their database is ridiculous, even in Stella-Liebeck-America.)


Karsten:

Just like others you so absolutely no understanding of business tactics and behavior. You can be sued because someone looked at you cross-eyed in this country, sometimes the filing of a suit has absolutely NOTHING to do with the viability of a suit. But it is a simple strategy to ruin a company  or a perhaps somebody. We have a now famous ex-judge that you have probably heard about he sued for millions of dollars for his favorite pair of suit pants. His suit in reality has little to do with the winnability of his action, he made himself a laughingstock, lost his job, and has turned it into a vendetta, through which he has successfully driven the dry cleaner out of business and perhaps even out of town by forcing them to spend well over $100,000 to defend themselves. That is the object of a predatory lawsuit, a business which wants to survive wiil try to actions to avoid  such behavior when they can, there are, of course, things which cannot be aniticipated, but this particular issue is NOT one of them.

Do I agree with these practices, absolutely not. I think they are wrong and abhorrent, but in the United States they are a reality and those tthat could easily change the Rules to something along the lines of if your suit is determined to be frivolous or you should lose it, then you have to pay the legal expenses (at least) of the party which was sued, would stop much of this action and make such legal action more rational. But those people sgow no intention of making any such changes. So why would I as an ongoing concern wish to put myself at risk, no matter how ridiculous such action miight be or how ridiculous you think it might be, it is the way it works. So while I understand your suggestion were I ken I might well adopt it, I would most certainly use a different technique for my keys which would be substantially different from a company which might be prone to an attack.

What I think of the morality of such an approach or what you think has no relevance. It IS, and any business or individual that chooses to ignore that reality does so at their own peril. We have a couple that is now being sued for posting a complaint about, I think a doctor, Online, I saw their post once and they had a complaint yes, but nothing that could be considered slander or libel, yet tehy are being sude and now they have to spend money which will probably not be recoverable to defend themselves. Why would you expose yourself to potential financial ruin willingly? Fooloishness.
Things may well be very different in Germany but and i am sure there are things in the german which are equally crazy. But Ken operates under the laws of the United States.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Posts: 1,807
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
The point is the common name won't be that important anymore, it could change and still link all the roles together.
With the introduction of a unique, unchanging primary key for each individual - we can call them anything we like, even have different names in different databases, as long as the key remains the same they will still all link together.


OK, they would be unique identifiers just like IMDb's.
Still, how should we vote on a contribution with a list of credits assigned to their identifiers?
Should each and every association credit-identifier be documented in order to establish the real person behind the credit?
If not, how on earth would we know that a contribution for "Johnny Smith", id DP0001234 is actually correct  and not a "John Smith" id DP0005678 sometimes credited as Johnny Smith.
-- Enry
 Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
I agree here... where is this info coming from?  Every name will have to be documented.

Fifth paragraph.


How should they vote on a list of undocumented names?

If the names cannot be documented or are not documented the vote should be NO.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantmadacid
Erka-lerka-derka...:-)
Registered: March 13, 2007
Germany Posts: 302
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
I agree here... where is this info coming from?  Every name will have to be documented.

Fifth paragraph.


How should they vote on a list of undocumented names?

undocumented in what way? existing in the movie or how the name is spelled?
because if the existence is documented (e.g. "saw his face in the movie at 1:34:43) it's a valid contribution. The namespelling is not part of the vote because you don't vote the name, you vote for the "linking to [ID of uncredited Person]"
regards, Mad  - 


My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs
 Last edited: by madacid
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Posts: 1,807
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
I didn't agree on using real names, I can live with common names, just not as "key" but more as "display name"


Fine, but a unique identifier identifies a unique person behind the credits. So, for each credit, you need to determine the person they belong to. You can't just contribute "credits" any more.
Like you wrote in this thread,
Quote:
That's basically the same problem you have today when you want to determine a common name: you have to know under which names he (or she) goes, when he was born, in what other movies he starred and so on.

But then, this system of ours is not enforced. If it was, I guess most contributions would have to be rejected.
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorBad Father
Registered: July 23, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 4,596
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote:
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
The point is the common name won't be that important anymore, it could change and still link all the roles together.
With the introduction of a unique, unchanging primary key for each individual - we can call them anything we like, even have different names in different databases, as long as the key remains the same they will still all link together.


I understand that...I'm not an idiot. What I want to know is what name will be "assigned" to the primary key and how is that determined? Karsten keeps saying it could be the common name. Fine. How can we determine the common name for this new primary key when the CLT is so screwed up and we can't even come to a general consensous on how to use the CLT, profiles vs. titles?

Any name you like - that's the point! One profile could contain the name "John Smith", another profile "Johnny Smith", but as long as the key is the same they would still link. The program could even be changed so that the most common use in your database is the common name that is shown - everyone could have their own common name without any affect to the linking. The idea of a "common name" would simply not be that important anymore.


Ok. I get it. And I like it. Only problem I see is what happens when we have two to three individuals with the same name? Each has his/her unique key but how do I know which is the correct one to use in my profile?
My WebGenDVD online Collection
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantmadacid
Erka-lerka-derka...:-)
Registered: March 13, 2007
Germany Posts: 302
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
I didn't agree on using real names, I can live with common names, just not as "key" but more as "display name"


Fine, but a unique identifier identifies a unique person behind the credits. So, for each credit, you need to determine the person they belong to. You can't just contribute "credits" any more.
Like you wrote in this thread,
...
you can't contribute "just credits" even NOW. The profiler forced you to split the cerdit into the 3 name-parts. That's the same as choosing an ID, but less unique.
Contributing just "as credited" data is impossible.
regards, Mad  - 


My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs
 Last edited: by madacid
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorDJ Doena
Registered: May 1, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 6,741
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote:
Ok. I get it. And I like it. Only problem I see is what happens when we have two to three individuals with the same name? Each has his/her unique key but how do I know which is the correct one to use in my profile?

You need to have a "lookup" option to determine that. I could imagine two ways:

1) local lookup: In which movies is the actor credited in my local collection.

2) online lookup: In which movies is the actor credited overall. Basically a re-use of the function that the CLT is currently using.

If it were me, I'd implement both, because the user is more likely to know his own collection and it's actors but maybe this is the first movie he bought with this actor.
Karsten
DVD Collectors Online

DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,330
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
But what if it is not a very well known actor? I know much about very few actors. If I see a name ... John Doe in a movie... and then see that there is more then 1... say 2 actors that goes by John Doe in the database... how do I know which to assign... I am not familiar with his name... I don't know his face... so I have no idea which it is. (And yes this is the majority of the cast I profile now)

The way it is now I just put in as it is credited... John//Doe and I don't have to worry about it. But in this case... if I am understanding it right I would have to decide whether to use one of the 2 that is listed or if I need to make a third for this name. Since I know absolutely nothing about the person... that would cause me to just say the hell with this and not bother contributing the cast lists because it just went from simply putting it in as I see it and not having to (what it seems like) worry about knowing every cast and crew member.

It is possible to have cast/crew and not know their faces or anything about them to be able to decide such a thing.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
That's the way I see it Pete. Everyone keeps focusing on how to handle Chow Yun Fats and Helena Bonham Carter (A listers) and completely ignoring how it works at the lower levels and it is the lower levels that determine how we need to handle the better knowns, otherwise we wind up with massive data inconsistency, some done this way and some done that way with no way to rectify the two. Kind of like we have now.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Posts: 1,807
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
Out of curiosity, how do the IMDb people decide which name is the base form in their db? Most credited?  First entered?  ???


I looked up their site and here is how they determine their primary name:

Quote:

The general rule is that the primary name for a person in the IMDb is the one they are most often credited as. Thus, even though John Wayne was once credited as Duke Morrison, and even though that's closer to his birth name of Marion Michael Morrison, his primary name in the database is John Wayne.

We make an exception to the rule if we have reason to believe someone will be using a different name for all future credits -- for example, if they changed their name because of marriage. However, we require at least one credit using the new name before making the change (and sometimes more if there are a lot of existing credits). For people who are no longer active, we do not accept such name changes.
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantmadacid
Erka-lerka-derka...:-)
Registered: March 13, 2007
Germany Posts: 302
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
But what if it is not a very well known actor? I know much about very few actors. If I see a name ... John Doe in a movie... and then see that there is more then 1... say 2 actors that goes by John Doe in the database... how do I know which to assign... I am not familiar with his name... I don't know his face... so I have no idea which it is. (And yes this is the majority of the cast I profile now)

The way it is now I just put in as it is credited... John//Doe and I don't have to worry about it. But in this case... if I am understanding it right I would have to decide whether to use one of the 2 that is listed or if I need to make a third for this name. Since I know absolutely nothing about the person... that would cause me to just say the hell with this and not bother contributing the cast lists because it just went from simply putting it in as I see it and not having to (what it seems like) worry about knowing every cast and crew member.

It is possible to have cast/crew and not know their faces or anything about them to be able to decide such a thing.
at the moment you link them to the the ID "John//Doe".
If you don't know the person, don't link it.
No matter if we use the old/existing system or installing a new. It's nessecary to "NOT" to be forced to link (regardless neither linking to "John//Doe" nor to [PERSONid]
regards, Mad  - 


My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs
 Last edited: by madacid
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Posts: 1,807
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting madacid:
Quote:
you can't contribute "just credits" even NOW.


Reality check: You shouldn't, according to the rules, but you do, and contributions get approved. 
I am not talking of exceptions, but of most contributions.
Actually, we do NOT verify each and every credit in order to determine if the same person behind the credits is also credited with some other names and if they are the same person.

Quote:

The profiler forced you to split the cerdit into the 3 name-parts. That's the same as choosing an ID, but less unique.
Contributing just "as credited" data is impossible.


The program forces you to parse the name, but it doesn't force you to "link" names you don't know about.
Now you can contribute a Johnny Smith as on screen, and most likely it will be approved.
With the new system, you will have to find out who he actually is and what other names he used, so that you can assign a unique identifier that identifies the person and distinguishes him from others.
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,330
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
The program forces you to parse the name, but it doesn't force you to "link" names you don't know about.
Now you can contribute a Johnny Smith as on screen, and most likely it will be approved.
With the new system, you will have to find out who he actually is and what other names he used, so that you can assign a unique identifier that identifies the person and distinguishes him from others.


See this is the part I can't get my head around. How can you add someone when you know nothing about the person... how can you have someone in the database with no personal id... as stated... see below...

Quote:
No matter if we use the old/existing system or installing a new. It's nessecary to "NOT" to be forced to link (regardless neither linking to "John//Doe" nor to [PERSONid]


Isn't it the nature of this beast that everyone  has a personal id? And if it is a case of making a new personal id for everyone you don't know... how is that an improvement on what we have now? You will still end up with multiple ids for a lot of people.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Posts: 1,807
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting madacid:
Quote:
at the moment you link them to the the ID "John//Doe".
If you don't know the person, don't link it.
No matter if we use the old/existing system or installing a new. It's nessecary to "NOT" to be forced to link (regardless neither linking to "John//Doe" nor to [PERSONid]


Well, let's peek at what happens in the IMDb.  It seems to me that they do force you to link.
For instance, if you try to contribute a credit for a Johnny Smith, here is (part of) the window that is displayed:

-- Enry
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantmadacid
Erka-lerka-derka...:-)
Registered: March 13, 2007
Germany Posts: 302
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
Quoting madacid:
Quote:
you can't contribute "just credits" even NOW.


Reality check: You shouldn't, according to the rules, but you do, and contributions get approved. 
I am not talking of exceptions, but of most contributions.
Actually, we do NOT verify each and every credit in order to determine if the same person behind the credits is also credited with some other names and if they are the same person.

Quote:

The profiler forced you to split the cerdit into the 3 name-parts. That's the same as choosing an ID, but less unique.
Contributing just "as credited" data is impossible.


The program forces you to parse the name, but it doesn't force you to "link" names you don't know about.
Now you can contribute a Johnny Smith as on screen, and most likely it will be approved.
With the new system, you will have to find out who he actually is and what other names he used, so that you can assign a unique identifier that identifies the person and distinguishes him from others.

Don't know which programm you use, but with the DVDProfiler it's impossible just to add "as credited" info. You are forced to select a "person's id" first, before you can set "as credited" on "role name".
regards, Mad  - 


My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs
    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 6 7 8 9 10 ...12  Previous   Next