Quoting paulb_99:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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I personally think the best way to handle it is the same way we do stunt people.... if it is listed in with the crew... it is considered crew. If it is within the cast list then (and only then) it should be considered cast.

Sorry, but i don't agree. I really don't care if we add them or don't but we either add them or don't. Always or never, which BTW is also my opnion on stunt/dancers etc. We either track them or we ignore them.

To me it doesn't make sense to have

cast
cast
stunt
adr
cast

let's add them

cast
cast

stunt

adr

Let's not add them even though they are the same person. Really strange so agin, let's have a decision, either yes or no

Paul

Paul:

For this particular moment the decision has already been made and it is in the Rules, just as Pete described. I am not averse to treating ADR as we do stunt people, even though I believe such is going be exceedingly rare. Nor do I disagree with Ken ADR to Sound somewhere down the road, but that is his call. I do object to trying to generally define ADR as Cast because they are, films have a well (usually) cast list, and ADR is not there, ADR is a subset of the Sound department, so if it goes that is where it goes.

Skip

Quoting Pantheon:

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While I may not agree with Skip on the issue of Credited As (although, while on that topic....I would like to point out that even though I am in favour of Ken's decision I still think Credited As should be a LOCAL ONLY feature...but that's just me!)

....I DO agree with him on the ADR issue.

For me, it simply comes back to the rules - if the ADR crew are NOT listed with the rest of the cast then they shouldn't be included in a contribution. It really is that simple, to me.

Whether or not the data is 'valuable' or 'relevant' is not important; simply the fact that the currect rules (as set down by Invelos) do NOT allow for this data to be added.

So, in that respect Skip is totally correct....T!M you are breaking the rules with your contributions; and while I may support you in other matters I certainly don't in this!!!!

Nicely summed up Pantheon! I agree 100%.. 

Quoting Pantheon:

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While I may not agree with Skip on the issue of Credited As (although, while on that topic....I would like to point out that even though I am in favour of Ken's decision I still think Credited As should be a LOCAL ONLY feature...but that's just me!)

....I DO agree with him on the ADR issue.

For me, it simply comes back to the rules - if the ADR crew are NOT listed with the rest of the cast then they shouldn't be included in a contribution. It really is that simple, to me.

Whether or not the data is 'valuable' or 'relevant' is not important; simply the fact that the currect rules (as set down by Invelos) do NOT allow for this data to be added.

So, in that respect Skip is totally correct....T!M you are breaking the rules with your contributions; and while I may support you in other matters I certainly don't in this!!!!

In addition to the above:

I'm auditing a lot of stuff at the moment...and here's examples of stuff that's not allowed:

Choreographer
Additional Music

BOTH of these crew are people I personally think are important and valid (especially the Music as, quite often, well-known composers contribute to the score).

However....neither is allowed under the current rules. Therefore, I add them using the 'Other' option and they don't get contributed...because, to do so would be against the rules.

Quoting T!M:

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That may wel be true: heck, a recent poll showed that a staggeringly high number of the users don't care about the entire crew section.

I think that you might find that those who answered 'crew' in that poll - I was one of them - might have been better served by having an option of 'some crew.'  It isn't the entire crew section I don't particularly care about, but I have no real interest in most of the sound department and most of the art department credits.  I do find it interesting/relevant to have what I consider the 'main' crew and would not see to eliminate the whole section.  Heck, I don't want to eliminate the parts I don't care about, because I do see where someone might be interested in the make-up or other art credits (still not sure about the interest in sound mixers, but eh, what have you). 

With ADR folks, I'm not convinced of the value of knowing that John Doe did an unnamed sound or voice somewhere in a film.  If you value the data - please enlighten me as to what having this piece of information gives you.  Seriously - I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything here, I really would like to know. 

Right now, I'm at the 'keep it local' part of the argument.  We may all have information that we are interested in that is either against the rules as they stand and/or of little interest to a lot of the community.  For my own example, one of those crew credits I am interested in is 'character designer' - a major credit in anime - but it's not one currently listed in DVDp.  It's instances like that we have that 'other' box for right now. 

As others have said, it does seem to me that if we are going to start entering ADR people, we'll also then have to start entering any performers - stuntmen, dancers, body doubles, etc - because there is little difference.  I do not think that most of us want that, although I could be wrong.

(edited for typos)

I am a bit late on that topic, but I say only add people to cast who are credited in the cast list, as long as the rules say so.

Quoting T!M:

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That may wel be true: heck, a recent poll showed that a staggeringly high number of the users don't care about the entire crew section.

This misstates the poll. That poll was regarding what one least cares to contribute, not whether one cares to have the data.

Quoting Astrakan:

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Quoting Dr Pavlov:

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Two smal problems Asrtra. Profiler has defined exactly what Cast is and where to find it. Your answers are invalid because they are not implementable, we would then completely lack the ability to be able to list casr because they might be anybody, anywhere in the credit list, not that doesn't work. They are Crew and that is all there is to it, Stunt People are crew.

I've already stated I'm not talking about profiler, but rather about real world terminology.

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Just follow the Rules and stop trying to make the process even MORE difficult just because you want it.

I've gone out of my way to make it clear I'm not trying to circumvent the rules, and I don't appreciate you insinuating that my motives are otherwise.

KM

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know what union the people who do foreign language "dubbing" tracks for DVDs belong to?

If they are members of the same union as the ADR voice folks, would you be advocating adding them to the cast list also?

I really don't see the relevance that their union affiliation has.  An Actor can do Director work.  The fact that they belong to the actor's union does not mean that they are part of the cast when they are directing. 

Quoting Astrakan:

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Quoting hal9g:

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Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know what union the people who do foreign language "dubbing" tracks for DVDs belong to?

If they are members of the same union as the ADR voice folks, would you be advocating adding them to the cast list also?

I don't know which union they belong to, I've never worked on a project requiring foreign language dubs. If I had to guess it would be an actor's union. In terms of adding them to the cast list, I think we already do that for the relevant locality. I know I've seen anime DVDs that lists both the English and Japanese voices. And I have a few animated movies with a Swedish locality that lists the Swedes who did the dubbing.

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I really don't see the relevance that their union affiliation has.  An Actor can do Director work.  The fact that they belong to the actor's union does not mean that they are part of the cast when they are directing. 

An actor that also directs qualifies for both the Director's Guild and one of the actor unions. Dues are then determined based on the work the actor performs on the project. If the person both acts and directs in the same project, two deal memos are drawn up, one for each job, and dues are paid to both unions.

The reason I brought up unions in the first place was to provide an insight into how the film industry regards ADR performers. Since they do not fall under the jurisdiction of crew unions, but rather actor unions, I think it's quite obvious that the industry does not regard them as crew.

And as stated before, I am not necessarily advocating that we track ADR performers, or how to track them. Just clarifying how the industry views them.

If we were to choose to start tracking ADR performers, we could have a look at their designation within the industry when deciding where to track them. Or we can choose to ignore that, and determine on our own where we think tracking them makes sense for DVD Profiler purposes.

KM

Or we could look at the fact that they are almost always listed in the crew section of the credits of most movies.  That tells me that the filmmakers consider them to be part of the crew regardless of their union affiliations.