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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Parsing: Kate Bowes Renna |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ah, just another glorious day in the DVD Profiler universe. You ask a simple question ("should it be X or Y?") and the answer you get is an even fifty-fifty split (poll balance is 13 vs. 13 as I type this). Wonderful.
Invelos: please address parsing somehow? I'm willing to go either way, but we clearly are never going to work it out among ourselves. |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Invelos: please address parsing somehow? I'm willing to go either way, but we clearly are never going to work it out among ourselves. The problem is that there is no good solution. In fact, for most ABC american names of actors/actresses, correct parsing is A/B/C (Tommy/Lee/Jones), and for most non american names, correct parsing is A//BC (Kristin//Scott Thomas), with of course, some exceptions in both cases. Middle names are used mainly in US. In many other countries, people have a second given name, but which is in fact not used (Nicole/Mary/Kidman is always credited as Nicole//Kidman), so BC for non american names is generally a double family name. Asian names are even more difficult to parse due to the reverse order between family/given names. Any automatic (or ruled, which is the same) solution, will lead to many errors and even more linking problems. | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Any automatic (or ruled, which is the same) solution, will lead to many errors and even more linking problems. "Errors" are in the eye of the beholder - in 99% of all parsing matters, I simply don't KNOW what the "correct" way of parsing is. Let me quote Skip from a previous parsing debate: Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Two of my own very best friends who I have known for over 40 years, I know both of their full names, but if you asked me I could not tell you precisely how their names should be parsed Now, if he doesn't know how to parse the names of some of his "very best friends", then why would DVD Profiler rely on him - and the rest of us - to determine the parsing of thousands and thousands of actors and crew members that we really don't know at all? Sure, I may have a "gut feeling" about how to parse any given name, but that is probably heavily biased by how Dutch culture looks at middle names. Someone else will probably have a completely different "gut feeling" for the same name. Those opposites will never meet - as this poll illustrates quite nicely. That means any worries over "errors" is pointless. What's an "error" to me may not be an "error" to you, and vice versa, and it doesn't seem like that'll ever change. The only thing left to focus on is consistency (and less linking problems) and that can be achieved by some standards/rules/contribution filters/whatever. As long as everyone keeps striving for "correct" parsing, we'll never get anywhere because for 99% of the names, we'll never ever agree on what "correct" is - as made abundantly clear by the current fifty-fifty poll results. |
| | Registered: March 10, 2007 |  Posts: 524 |
| | Posted: | | | | Since there doesn't seem to be clear cut evidence to the contrary, I would go with 1/2/3. | | | | Invelos Software, Inc. Representative |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
That means any worries over "errors" is pointless. To get correct data is for me the MOST important thing for collecting my movies. Most of time I spend with this program is to correct errors. The solution which consists in putting anything in the online database just to have the pleasure to follow a blind rule will just cause endless problems. As for parsing, the great majority of errors I had to correct was A/de/B, or A/von/B, to A //de B or A//von B. Difficult cases are very few, and in fact not a problem. If you want to solve a real big problem, have a look at accentuation : in CLT, we find Francois Berleand, François Berleand, Francois Berléand and François Berléand (the correct one). Quoting Gerri Cole: Quote:
Since there doesn't seem to be clear cut evidence to the contrary, I would go with 1/2/3. If you rule that, you will solve a dozen of unknown parsing and make wrong hundreds of evident parsing. And it will not solve Thi Hoe Tranh Huu Trieu  ... | | | | Images from movies |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
To get correct data is for me the MOST important thing for collecting my movies. For me as well. But the problem is that what is "correct" to you is not necessarily "correct" to me or to anyone else. Since, as this poll and many similar ones before it show, we're completely unable to "define" correct in about 99% of all parsing questions, there has to be something else than your, mine or anyone else's feeling what is "correct". When "correct" can't be defined, it can't be the deciding factor. |
| | Registered: March 21, 2007 |  Posts: 162 |
| | Posted: | | | | This may not help, but the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences website has her listed in its "Index to Motion Picture Credits" as RENNA, KATE BOWES.
See http://wwwdb.oscars.org:8100/servlet/impc.NameCredits?name_in=RENNA,~KATE~BOWES
Would this be considered an accurate source?
Glenn |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
we're completely unable to "define" correct in about 99% of all parsing questions. Wrong. The fact that we discussed a dozen of difficult cases do not mean that all parsing questions are difficult. 70 % are evident (titles as Reverend, Captain or Sister..., articles as de, de la, von, di...), and minimal research give the solution for hundreds of names like Tommy/Lee /Jones or Kristin //Scott Thomas. If we choose a standard solution for a non standard problem, it will be the choice of mediocrity, as usual for online data...  | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting woodg: Quote:
This may not help, but the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences website has her listed in its "Index to Motion Picture Credits" as RENNA, KATE BOWES.
See http://wwwdb.oscars.org:8100/servlet/impc.NameCredits?name_in=RENNA,~KATE~BOWES
Would this be considered an accurate source?
As accurate as this one, for BOWES RENNA, Kate.... | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 1,242 |
| | Posted: | | | | Without wishing to sound confrontational, it surprises me that just because American women move their maiden name to the middle name field when they marry, a majority of the US users on these forums expect that all women around the rest of the world do so too.
Since the actress being typed about in this thread is a English actress, WHY wouldn't she just simply have a Double Barrelled last name WITHOUT a hyphen aka Bonham Carter?
Steve |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Wrong. No, not wrong. Parsing of articles and prefixes has nothing to do with this, and you know it. That's not what we're talking about here. Of all other names consisting of more than two parts (again: excluding prefixes, suffixes, articles, and excluding stage names as well), you'll find that 99% of them have separate, non-linking, differently parsed entries in the database - that's how big a problem this is. Like you, I have a "gut feeling" on how to parse all of them as well. The difference is that you instantly declare your "gut feeling" to be the one and only "correct" way of parsing, while I don't. Others users will do the exact same thing as you do, except their outcome will be the exact opposite. Again: see these poll results - the community is evenly split on what is the "correct" thing here. Hence my statement that if we can't universally define "correct", then it can't be the deciding factor. We can't do "correct" if we can't agree what "correct" is. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
|  | Berak | | Bibamus morieundum est! |
| Registered: May 10, 2007 |  Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Wrong.
No, not wrong. Parsing of articles and prefixes has nothing to do with this, and you know it. That's not what we're talking about here. Of all other names consisting of more than two parts (again: excluding prefixes, suffixes, articles, and excluding stage names as well), you'll find that 99% of them have separate, non-linking, differently parsed entries in the database - that's how big a problem this is. Like you, I have a "gut feeling" on how to parse all of them as well. The difference is that you instantly declare your "gut feeling" to be the one and only "correct" way of parsing, while I don't. Others users will do the exact same thing as you do, except their outcome will be the exact opposite. Again: see these poll results - the community is evenly split on what is the "correct" thing here. Hence my statement that if we can't universally define "correct", then it can't be the deciding factor. We can't do "correct" if we can't agree what "correct" is. Well put. I agree 100 %.  | | | Berak
It's better to burn out than to fade away!
True love conquers all! |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
No, not wrong. Parsing of articles and prefixes has nothing to do with this, and you know it. And why most of corrections I had to make on three words names from the online data were about articles? I had not to correct Kristin//Scott Thomas, who would become Kristin/Scott/Thomas if Gerri chose to rule as she proposed. You say that correct data is not the same for everybody. Who really thinks that Kristin/Scott/Thomas and Tommy//Lee Jones are correct ? With a blind rule, you will get one, or the other... | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Registered: May 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,033 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
No, not wrong. Parsing of articles and prefixes has nothing to do with this, and you know it.
And why most of corrections I had to make on three words names from the online data were about articles? I had not to correct Kristin//Scott Thomas, who would become Kristin/Scott/Thomas if Gerri chose to rule as she proposed.
You say that correct data is not the same for everybody. Who really thinks that Kristin/Scott/Thomas and Tommy//Lee Jones are correct ? Now your just reading what you want to read. Re-read Gerri's post. She said "since there doesn't seem to be any clear cut evidence..." bolding by me. So obviously if there was clear cut evidence then it would be ok to put it in as 1//2 3 (though technically in that case it's only 1//2) and your needing to change the articles is a red herring. It has no bearing on this case because the rules tell us what to do and obviously the entries you were correcting were incorrect per the rules to begin with Quote:
Articles (such as de, de la, di, von) are entered in the appropriate name field along with the name that they precede. Use the film credits to determine whether the actor capitalizes this article or not. and as far as all the comments regarding American woman moving their maiden name to the middle name. Add me to the list of Americans that has never seen anyone they know do this, in fact the first time I heard of such a thing was on these forums. -Agrare |
| | Registered: March 10, 2007 | | Posts: 524 |
| | Posted: | | | | Agrare is correct. I was suggesting for this particular case only. | | | | Invelos Software, Inc. Representative |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Agrare: Quote:
Add me to the list of Americans that has never seen anyone they know do this, in fact the first time I heard of such a thing was on these forums. If this hardly ever happens, wouldn't we benefit enormously from a rule addition that said: "all maiden names should be listed as part of the last name-field"? |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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