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The Birds
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorBad Father
Registered: July 23, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 4,596
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Quoting Lopek:
Quote:
I'm changing my vote, I think it is Helena//Bonham Carter's The Birds 


No. That would be Helena//Bonham Carter's-The Birds
My WebGenDVD online Collection
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantjgilligan
Got PEZ?
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 171
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Quoting Rifter:
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Quoting jgilligan:
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Quoting Rifter:
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Outstanding detective work.  Hitchcock is not the only director, by any means, to understand and make use of the value of his name being associated with the title of a film.  Frank Miller has made similar remarks about his work, and the heirs of both Edgar Rice Burroughs and J. R. R. Tolkien have acknowledged that same idea in marketing the work of their predecessors. 

Once again, well done.


I think I see the answer in your post above...  You mention, and it appears to be your own words, not  a quote, that Hitchcock understood the value of having his name associated with the title of a film.  You didn't say included in the title of the film.


There are times when the possessives are part of the title, but those seem to be the exception rather than the rule.  What seems very odd to me is that it is the same people who are now adamantly arguing FOR the inclusion of the possessives that were arguing AGAINST them a few short years ago.

It appears that, once again, we are trying to come up with a rule that has absolutely no room for interpretation.  And, when there is no room left for interpretation, we WILL end up with bad data in the online database.  I, and many others, don't want consistent data, we want accurate data.

I don't know what it will take, but somewhere along the line we have to come to the realization that there are no absolutes in this world.  We can never come up with a set of all encompassing rules that will make it possible to profile both the DVD and the movie it contains without some human thought behind it.  We have the screeners and the voting process.  If the screeners let it through, and a significant majority of the voters agree, then it is probably the right way to go.


Don't play word games with what I say.  You know what I meant, and I still mean the same thing.


I'm not playing any word games at all, I'm just reading your comment and replying.  What you said, in the words you used, is exactly how I view this.  Mr. Hitchcock has his name associated with the title because it was well known at the time that even an unexciting film title like "The Birds" would attract viewers if they knew the film was made by Hitchcock.


As far as knowing what you meant... Sorry, I'm not inside your head so all I have to go by is what you type here.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormdnitoil
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,777
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Just a general observation.  I'm sure it's not unique and has probably been made many times before.

I've noticed when an unpleasant situation comes up in the contribution forums, there is a great deal of fighting and arguing, rules assessing, and finally, if merited, problem solving.  I also observe that the problem solving phase involves accepted permutations or qualifications to the rules to account for this problem.  Perhaps its a new way of looking at the data or just an agreed upon translation of what we are seeing.  Finally, I notice a bunch of people acknowledging that the new method isn't perfect but it'll work until the next problem comes along and we'll just have to revisit it then.

So far, everything seems reasonable.  A little bumpy, but perfectly reasonable.

Fast foward a couple of years, and now that dreaded exception rears it's head.  Rather than remember that this was inevitable and that it would be addressed at the time, we have a situation where the rules have become this immutable force of nature that are inviolate.  The rules are so rigid, that we have folks actually advocating that it's the data's fault and if the data won't conform, then the data must change.  But....you knew this was coming when you made the rule.

At what point did allegiance to the rules become more important than correct data?  Because you knew going into things, that the rules as written wouldn't always allow correct data.  Sure, we all slapped ourselves on the back when we wrote them and promised to look at those special cases when they arose (wink wink, nudge nudge), so what the heck happened?

Allegiance to the rules at the expense of correct data means your database is useless.  I've been working in the data field for over 20 years.  In all my professional life I've never once received a request for well formatted data that isn't knowingly correct.  However, our goal, with this almost pathological invoking of the rules, seems to be just this situation.  Every database administrator in the world is protective of their data.  Point out a piece of information that is wrong and they'll rush to fix it.  But here, no data is wrong if it matches the rules.  If it doesn't, don't worry, we'll beat it into submission.

I find it fascinating that when this title change was first proposed, few people actually bothered to ask themselves whether it was right...they asked whether it followed the rules.  Big difference folks.

Just my non-SRP related 2 cents.
 Last edited: by mdnitoil
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwidescreenforever
Under A Double DoubleW
Registered: March 13, 2007
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But nobody (including Skip ) cares if its right,, only if it follows 'da  Rules.
In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.

Terry
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantCool_doodad
Registered: March 13, 2007
Canada Posts: 404
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Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
Just a general observation.  I'm sure it's not unique and has probably been made many times before.

I've noticed when an unpleasant situation comes up in the contribution forums, there is a great deal of fighting and arguing, rules assessing, and finally, if merited, problem solving.  I also observe that the problem solving phase invloves accepted permutations or qualifications to the rules to account for this problem.  Perhaps its a new way of looking at the data or just an agreed upon translation of what we are seeing.  Finally, I notice a bunch of people acknowledging that the new method isn't perfect but it'll work until the next problem comes along and we'll just have to revisit it then.

So far, everything seems reasonable.  A little bumpy, but perfectly reasonable.

Fast foward a couple of years, and now that dreaded exception rears it's head.  Rather than remember that this was inevitable and that it would be addressed at the time, we have a situation where the rules have become this immutable force of nature that are inviolate.  The rules are so rigid, that we have folks actually advocating that it's the data's fault and if the data won't conform, then the data must change.  But....you knew this was coming when you made the rule.

At what point did allegiance to the rules become more important than correct data?  Because you knew going into things, that the rules as written wouldn't always allow correct data.  Sure, we all slapped ourselves on the back when we wrote them and promised to look at those special cases when they arose (wink wink, nudge nudge), so what the heck happened?

Allegiance to the rules at the expense of correct data means your database is useless.  I've been working in the data field for over 20 years.  In all my professional life I've never once received a request for well formatted data that isn't knowingly correct.  However, our goal, with this almost pathological invoking of the rules, seems to be just this situation.  Every database administrator in the world is protective of their data.  Point out a piece of information that is wrong and they'll rush to fix it.  But here, no data is wrong if it matches the rules.  If it doesn't, don't worry, we'll beat it into submission.

I find it fascinating that when this title change was first proposed, few people actually bothered to ask themselves whether it was right...they asked whether it followed the rules.  Big difference folks.

Just my non-SRP related 2 cents.


Very well said. 
The Other DVD Forum
Why do people who know the least know it the loudest?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantjohnd
Evening, poetry lovers.
Registered: March 13, 2007
Australia Posts: 298
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Quoting skipnet50:
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The users have taught me to do that, they will exploit ANY weakness they can find and in some cases recently even invent weaknesses where NONE exists.


This is your problem Skip. Everyhting has to be about you and your interpretation of a set of rules crafted and manipulated by you that do not represent the opinions of a majority of DVDProfiler users. You then turn every discussion into an adversarial process that revolves around the literal interpretation of these rules. When it is demonstrated that a rule does not work for a particular piece of data, you want to force the data to change to suit the rule, rather than the other way around.

You debates sound very similar to those in other forums that try to ignore or manipulate biological data to fit some religious view.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantjohnd
Evening, poetry lovers.
Registered: March 13, 2007
Australia Posts: 298
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Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:


I find it fascinating that when this title change was first proposed, few people actually bothered to ask themselves whether it was right...they asked whether it followed the rules.  Big difference folks.



Sorry, didn't read your post till after my last one.

The rules will not cover everything. There will always be exceptions. Changing the "Guidelines" into "Rules" will not change that.

(I wonder whose idea that change was.....)

We now have a situation where:

1. Inaccurate data is now allowed and encouraged (the SRP debate)
2. Data is manipulated to "fit" the rules (this debate)
3. "Rules" are applied to subjective information (any genre debate)

It's just ridiculous, and allows people like Skip to parade their lack of social skills under the banner of "Defending the Rules".

Well, if the rules need defending, then there is something wrong with them.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantjohnd
Evening, poetry lovers.
Registered: March 13, 2007
Australia Posts: 298
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Quoting Rifter:
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Oh, get over yourself.  Your opinion is no more important than anybody else's.


Actually, I am the most important person here, and my opinion is the only one that counts.






Sorry, channeling Skip for a moment.....
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantDan W
Registered: May 9, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 980
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Quoting johnd:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

Oh, get over yourself.  Your opinion is no more important than anybody else's.


Actually, I am the most important person here, and my opinion is the only one that counts.






Sorry, channeling Skip for a moment.....

No, I am!
Dan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
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Quoting djskyler:
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Quoting Rifter:
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Who cares if Joe Blow doesn't edit his local database?  That isn't the point and never has been.  The point is that he CAN IF HE WISHES TO.

My point is to make it so he doesn't have to in order to make it fundamentally functional.

Quote:
In order for that to happen, the data in the online must be accurate and consistent.

I'm all for consistent.  It's what is "accurate" that's carried us to page 18.

Quote:
And why do so many presume to know better than the studio/director what the name of the film is?  It is what it is, and that is what you see on the screen and that's the end of it.

Director > "The Birds"
On Screen > Alfred's Hitchcock's > screen dissolve > The Birds from the Story by Daphne Du Maurier
Studio > 1-818-777-4315 (who wants to make the call?)


If you want to make it so he doesn't have to edit anything, then you don't understand the premise of a user-built database.  That is part of the problem, not part of the solution.  Accuracy is what is on the disc, supplemented by documented source material when necessary.  It ain't personal preference of any kind.  Finally, if the screen shows "Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds", even with a fade-out/in in the middle, that's the title.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTelecine
Regd: January 22, 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
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Quoting Dan W:
Quote:
Quoting johnd:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

Oh, get over yourself.  Your opinion is no more important than anybody else's.


Actually, I am the most important person here, and my opinion is the only one that counts.






Sorry, channeling Skip for a moment.....

No, I am!


I am Spartacus
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
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Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
I find it fascinating that when this title change was first proposed, few people actually bothered to ask themselves whether it was right...they asked whether it followed the rules.  Big difference folks.


I beg to differ.  I thought it was right AND followed the rules. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
If you want to make it so he doesn't have to edit anything, then you don't understand the premise of a user-built database.  That is part of the problem, not part of the solution.  Accuracy is what is on the disc, supplemented by documented source material when necessary.  It ain't personal preference of any kind.  Finally, if the screen shows "Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds", even with a fade-out/in in the middle, that's the title.


That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it but your opinion doesn't make it fact.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormdnitoil
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,777
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
I find it fascinating that when this title change was first proposed, few people actually bothered to ask themselves whether it was right...they asked whether it followed the rules.  Big difference folks.


I beg to differ.  I thought it was right AND followed the rules. 

Well, I qualified it with "few".

Give me a break, I was on a roll! 
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
I find it fascinating that when this title change was first proposed, few people actually bothered to ask themselves whether it was right...they asked whether it followed the rules.  Big difference folks.


I beg to differ.  I thought it was right AND followed the rules. 

Well, I qualified it with "few".

Give me a break, I was on a roll! 


Oh come on...I was just trying to create more 'made up drama'. 



That and I missed the word 'few'. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantdjskyler
It's not where you start
Registered: March 17, 2007
United States Posts: 125
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Well, the bottom line for me now is that the rules as they exist are working just fine, because the rules integrate a voting process at the end.  The votes will be tallied and the profile shall be altered or not altered based on the voting numbers.  Excessive lobbying is this thread may influence some in the vote, but fortunately the profiles are not created nor accepted/rejected in the forum.  In my own opinion the voting currently leans toward common sense which satisfies me.

Quoting Dan W:
Quote:
My thinking is that without an indicator such as an opening quote before the possessive and an end quote at the end of the full title, the possessive should not be included as part of the title...
Without an indicator, the possessive should not be included as part of the title because it's just somebody bragging...
We would look for these indicators or "qualifiers" on the title screen or in the copyright or in the credits section on the back cover. Official websites would also be an acceptable source....
it's time to rewrite the rule on possessives

Dan W makes a very good point (and I like it since it favors "The Birds" over "Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds") but I would say excessive rule tweaking is really just a movement by some to eventually eliminate the voting process (no need to vote now, the rules cover everything).

Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
the screen shows "Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds", even with a fade-out/in in the middle, that's the title.

This thread has been very entertaining to me and I appreciate all the energy you and others have dedicated to this minority position.
I never get to discuss film this much with people in my day to day life. 
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