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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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Picture-in-Picture Option in Features for DVDs |
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Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 20,111 |
| | Posted: | | | | I would also like it to appear as a feature option for DVD's. I own at least several which have video commentaries that display PiP content.
True, it is more commonly found on Blu-rays; but the fact is that it does exist on some DVD releases too. | | | | Corey |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
I have to agree with TheMovieman. PiP is not content based, it is simply a picture within a picture. The common definition of PiP is the mixing of two separate content streams (using a secondary video and audio decoder) into one. DVD is not capable of such a thing so labeling it PiP would at least constitute a non-standard use of the term. Not sure what the gain would be, except for causing confusion. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 | | | | Last edited: by Nexus the Sixth |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I have to agree with TheMovieman. PiP is not content based, it is simply a picture within a picture.
The common definition of PiP is the mixing of two separate content streams (using a secondary video and audio decoder) into one. DVD is not capable of such a thing so labeling it PiP would at least constitute a non-standard use of the term. Not sure what the gain would be, except for causing confusion. That's the way I understand it too. In order to have PiP you have to have 2 video streams, and I also think to mix the two variations would confuse the issue. I'd prefer it maybe if the rules were amended to include these as "video commentaries" - I think they fit there better than PiP. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 |  Posts: 1,982 |
| | Posted: | | | | Good lord not a rule against for something quite obvious... If it's a commentary with an image of the commentators on the film image it's a picture on picture commentary. It's just common sense as burn in subtitle are subtitle...
Better to forget it than add another unecessary rules for something quite simple to do in the other features section (but more space in this section would be very appreciated) |
|  | Blair | | Resistance is Futile! |
| Registered: October 30, 2008 | | Posts: 1,249 |
| | Posted: | | | | I would say NO to this if the primary use of them happens to be for commentaries. It's not a "rules" issue for me as much as a cross-feature (new confusion) issue. Each features denotes something specific. If there happens to be a movie trailer for a real film in the center of a comedy added as a gag, I still don't expect to see "Features Trailers" chosen as a feature. If I see an interactive game with music, I don't expect for "Music Videos" to also be selected. I don't expect to see "Commentary" or "Featurettes" selected if I am watching what are only blooper reels but just happen to have someone voice-over commenting on all of them as they play. Likewise, I don't use the reasoning of, "Well, most of the time I should only select 'Commentaries' by itself for when they are voice-over commentaries playing during the film... but then again, there are some occasions when the commentators are also in a screen off to the side (eg: The Goonies DVD) or appear like Mystery Science Theater 3000 silhouette characters at the bottom of the screen (eg: Men in Black / Men in Black II) in which case I need to select 'PiP' in addition to 'Commentary' to denote that specific issue concerning the commentaries." Just my opinion  | | | If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
He who MUST get the last word in on a pointless, endless argument doesn't win. It makes him the bigger jerk. | | | | Last edited: by Blair |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Blair: Quote:
I would say NO to this if the primary use of them happens to be for commentaries.
It's not a "rules" issue for me as much as a cross-feature (new confusion) issue.
Each features denotes something specific. If there happens to be a movie trailer for a real film in the center of a comedy added as a gag, I still don't expect to see "Features Trailers" chosen as a feature. If I see an interactive game with music, I don't expect for "Music Videos" to also be selected. I don't expect to see "Commentary" or "Featurettes" selected if I am watching what are only blooper reels but just happen to have someone voice-over commenting on all of them as they play.
Likewise, I don't use the reasoning of, "Well, most of the time I should only select 'Commentaries' by itself for when they are voice-over commentaries playing during the film... but then again, there are some occasions when the commentators are also in a screen off to the side (eg: The Goonies DVD) or appear like Mystery Science Theater 3000 silhouette characters at the bottom of the screen (eg: Men in Black / Men in Black II) in which I also need to select PiP to denote that specific issue concerning the commentaries."
Just my opinion I agree with that, though often there are DVDs that have both a video/PiP commentary and an audio only commentary thus both can be selected. The definition of Picture-in-Picture is just that... a box with something else in it (participants commenting on the movie) over the movie itself. I wouldn't count the silhouettes as PiP as it doesn't even fit the definition in the rules anyway. In fact, none of the rules have to be changed because as they are still fits just that it is allowed for DVDs... I don't see why it needs to complicated. We have a standard for Blu-rays which then can be the same for DVDs. Quote:
Picture-in-picture content integrated into the main feature or supplemental[sp] content, not including the menus themselves. The issue you have is something I'm more confused with with Blu-rays and specifically Universal's U-Control or Warner's Maximum Movie Mode which often encompasses many features within (commentary, featurettes, deleted scenes, gag reel, etc). |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Also no from me, mainly because of the implications of this. Early-blu-ray players can't do picture-in-picture. If we allow thsi check for DVDs, where it's really all oen video stream, then we'd logically have to allow fake PiP on Blu-rays like Termnator 3 and The Descent as well, which means that users would be left without a way to tell if a feature will work on their player or not. Fake PiP shoudl be listed in the other features box. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,203 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I have to agree with TheMovieman. PiP is not content based, it is simply a picture within a picture.
The common definition of PiP is the mixing of two separate content streams (using a secondary video and audio decoder) into one. DVD is not capable of such a thing so labeling it PiP would at least constitute a non-standard use of the term. Not sure what the gain would be, except for causing confusion. Perhaps, but that isn't what you said, nor is it what I addressed. You said, "If I see a PiP feature I expect more than a commentary. A video commentary is still just a commentary." That, to me, meant it was content based and that was the point I was addressing. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Also no from me, mainly because of the implications of this. Early-blu-ray players can't do picture-in-picture. If we allow thsi check for DVDs, where it's really all oen video stream, then we'd logically have to allow fake PiP on Blu-rays like Termnator 3 and The Descent as well, which means that users would be left without a way to tell if a feature will work on their player or not. Fake PiP shoudl be listed in the other features box. Huh? I'm afraid I still don't understand the issue here. Yes, early Blu-rays players didn't or couldn't do PiP yet newer ones which over the years will become more prominent can and will (in fact, I don't think they even sell 1.0 profile BD players in stores anymore, here in the US anyway). I still don't see why it shouldn't be allowed for DVDs. Again, Picture-in-Picture is Picture-in-Picture. Fake or not. Smaller window within a larger window. Seems simple to me and under the current rules, it would still fit as I quoted before as it is content integrated into the main feature, which the ones I'm thinking of, are. | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMovieman: Quote:
Again, Picture-in-Picture is Picture-in-Picture. Fake or not. Smaller window within a larger window. Seems simple to me and under the current rules, it would still fit as I quoted before as it is content integrated into the main feature, which the ones I'm thinking of, are. It makes a big difference whether Picture-in-picture is fake or not if you have an original Blu-ray player. You can watch the fake PiP features of Terminator 3 and the Descent on Blu-ray (or, for that matter, Glory on DVD), but not the real PiP of The Matrix and 300: The Complete Experience. Picture-in-picture, as it is used in DVD Profiler, is a specific technical feature, not a general concept. The subtitle analogy doesn't hold up. We listed player subs and burned-in subs, but not closed captioning. I would be ok with adding this if we had some way of distinguish real PiP and burned in PiP, but not if it's going to add confusion. |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Quoting TheMovieman:
Quote:
Again, Picture-in-Picture is Picture-in-Picture. Fake or not. Smaller window within a larger window. Seems simple to me and under the current rules, it would still fit as I quoted before as it is content integrated into the main feature, which the ones I'm thinking of, are.
It makes a big difference whether Picture-in-picture is fake or not if you have an original Blu-ray player. You can watch the fake PiP features of Terminator 3 and the Descent on Blu-ray (or, for that matter, Glory on DVD), but not the real PiP of The Matrix and 300: The Complete Experience. Picture-in-picture, as it is used in DVD Profiler, is a specific technical feature, not a general concept.
The subtitle analogy doesn't hold up. We listed player subs and burned-in subs, but not closed captioning. I would be ok with adding this if we had some way of distinguish real PiP and burned in PiP, but not if it's going to add confusion. Again, and I'm being serious, I don't see the confusion in this. A featurette is a featurette. A set of deleted scenes are deleted scenes and a Picture-in-Picture feature is still Picture-in-Picture fake or not. I honestly do not see why this is so difficult. But given how slow things can be and I highly doubt will ever happen anyway, I just wish the option would be there (but kept only local, a la the custom roles) as I would like to have that data available (I like it in the charts and graphs as well) but as it stands, it can't. | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting KinoNiki:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I have to agree with TheMovieman. PiP is not content based, it is simply a picture within a picture.
The common definition of PiP is the mixing of two separate content streams (using a secondary video and audio decoder) into one. DVD is not capable of such a thing so labeling it PiP would at least constitute a non-standard use of the term. Not sure what the gain would be, except for causing confusion.
Perhaps, but that isn't what you said, nor is it what I addressed. You said, "If I see a PiP feature I expect more than a commentary. A video commentary is still just a commentary." That, to me, meant it was content based and that was the point I was addressing. I'll try to put it in simpler terms next time, just for you. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMovieman: Quote:
Again, and I'm being serious, I don't see the confusion in this. A featurette is a featurette. A set of deleted scenes are deleted scenes and a Picture-in-Picture feature is still Picture-in-Picture fake or not. I honestly do not see why this is so difficult.
But given how slow things can be and I highly doubt will ever happen anyway, I just wish the option would be there (but kept only local, a la the custom roles) as I would like to have that data available (I like it in the charts and graphs as well) but as it stands, it can't. Not necessarily. If a featurette were only available on DVD-ROM we wouldn't list it. Same for deleted scenes. As a general rules, we don't mix features that work on all players with features with special techinal requirements. |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Quoting TheMovieman:
Quote:
Again, and I'm being serious, I don't see the confusion in this. A featurette is a featurette. A set of deleted scenes are deleted scenes and a Picture-in-Picture feature is still Picture-in-Picture fake or not. I honestly do not see why this is so difficult.
But given how slow things can be and I highly doubt will ever happen anyway, I just wish the option would be there (but kept only local, a la the custom roles) as I would like to have that data available (I like it in the charts and graphs as well) but as it stands, it can't.
Not necessarily. If a featurette were only available on DVD-ROM we wouldn't list it. Same for deleted scenes. As a general rules, we don't mix features that work on all players with features with special techinal requirements. I know we don't list featurettes that are only on DVD-ROM (or in the case of Blu-rays BD-Live) because they are not accessible on the disc itself (when called upon for the Internet) but PiP options are and are accessible by selecting it via the menu (which any featurette or deleted scenes via BD-Live or DVD-ROM are not). PiP are not called up on a separate server and you don't need a computer or an Internet connection to utilize it. Because your player is too old to play it doesn't hold water. We cannot cover everybody as some people may have first generation players but generally those are in the minority as only 2.0 profile players are available and the 1.0 ones are becoming obsolete (since some discs won't play and the manufacturer has decided to drop all support and won't update it). Again, I still don't see how it refers to having the option for PiP on DVDs. So you don't like the idea because then you don't know if a PiP feature works on your player? And once again, under the current rules, why would it not be appropriate for PiP be allowed for DVDs? | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 1,982 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
We listed player subs and burned-in subs, but not closed captioning. Yes we do in the special features section (even if this had nothing to do there) Quoting TheMovieman: Quote:
Again, I still don't see how it refers to having the option for PiP on DVDs. So you don't like the idea because then you don't know if a PiP feature works on your player? This had nothing to with nothing, but since it's DVDP even the more evident and simple thing must be a debate... No wonder no update are made to the main software... | | | | Last edited: by Jimmy S |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am not sure that I understand the argument...
As far as I am concerned, a standard DVD player and DVD format does not support PIP in any sense of the word. Whether or not, there is a video commentary stream on the DVD, is irrelevant to the discussion of PIP. If the format will not support it, I am not sure how we can list it as a feature on a disc. For the DVD side, it should be listed as other features-video commentary
As far as the HD side of things, if it is true PIP, I am sure that, in most cases, it would be listed. If the FAKE PIP can be viewed on a version 1 BD player, that does not support PIP, then how can it be flagged as PIP. That would be like calling Closed Captioning a subtitle (which, because of TECHNICAL ASPECTs, it is not.
PIP is a specific type of feature, that is not supported by all players, nor is it supported by all discs.
Therefore, it should only be PIP, if it is truly a real PIP.
Charlie |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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