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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3  Previous   Next
Makeup Supervisor
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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United States Posts: 3,480
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
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Still mixing apples and oranges< james. your question has NOTHING to do with undocumented data or even documented data. Your question regards whether the divination of ken's intent was correct. I document the data as i do so that everyone knows exactly what is transpiring voters and users ALIKE. You were the only user who didn't like the interpretation, the other THIRTEEN user agreed with it some of them enough to comment regarding your comment. Sorry, James your interpretation does not always Rule and neither does mine, when it does, it does, when it doesn't that's fine too.

We have been through similar discussions many times and they always come down the same way. You always believe that there is only one possible interpretation and it is yours, your setting up of this poll, in view of what both the screeners and other voters thought about the same topic simply proves that point. Otherwise you would simply accept it and move on, it also demonstrates to me a distinct lack of understanding about the role Wally (Bud) Westmore in Paramount Studios history. If this upsets you, I apologize but, I am not attacking you, I am calling it like I see it. As I have said many, many times aour data is based on experience with the data, Hollywood has an ugly habit of throwing curve balls.

I am not going to discuss this further, James. the topic for me is finished and i have the answer I need going forward.

Skip <shrugs>

So when you do it, I have to accept it and move on, but when someone else does it, you get to restore "correct" data. 

Sorry, I'm still confused as to how to vote. There are too many unwritten rules that are allowed by some and unwritten Invelos acceptance precedents to follow.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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France Posts: 4,479
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Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:

Sorry, I'm still confused as to how to vote. There are too many unwritten rules that are allowed by some and unwritten Invelos acceptance precedents to follow.


In this case, I think there is no interpretation possible. We may thank the author of the sentence, which is sufficiently precise not to give place to any interpretation. As for unwritten rules, we may ask to a new contributor to read the contribution rules, but certainly not the thousands pages of contribution forum.
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 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
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You're welcome. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
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Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Sorry, I'm still confused as to how to vote. There are too many unwritten rules that are allowed by some and unwritten Invelos acceptance precedents to follow.


It has become a mine field and I honestly don't know how to fix it.  I tried to solve the bad wording we had in the old credit rules...no 'credits to include' column...but it seems I replaced one problem with another.  As a parser, I should have known better, but I missed it.  Unfortunately, Ken missed it as well.  I, and a few others, have suggested possible fixes but, so far, no joy.

My best advice is to vote your conscience.  If something gets through, that you think shouldn't have, do exactly what you did in this case.  You may not get any satisfaction...and you may end up on an island all by yourself...but, at least you gave it a shot.  You can't ask for much more than that.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:

In this case, I think there is no interpretation possible. We may thank the author of the sentence, which is sufficiently precise not to give place to any interpretation.


I forgot to add that, since the problem is well known and everybody admits there is no possible interpretation of the wording of the rule, to try to contribute such roles, or vote yes on a contribution with not listed crew role, or let think somebody he can do want he wants,  is a blatant violation of rules.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 2,759
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Quoting Unicus69:
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I see all kinds of 'supervisor' type credits listed...Chief Makeup Artist, Department Head, Head Make-Up Artist, Key Make-Up Artist, Lead Makeup Artist...but no 'Makeup Supervisor'.

That's the "functional equivalent" argument; isn't it? 

Yes it is! One more reason why functional equivalents should be officially allowed.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 2,759
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting tweeter:
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I've contributed a number of Make-up Supervisors and as a rule i include that credited role in my notes.

Every time i've encountered it the role was listed right where the Chief/Lead/Dept. Head/Head Make-up person would be, just ahead of the Make-up Artists.

This is usually about as far as i stray from the reservation when making credit decisions but it just seemed so obvious that with so many synonyms for 'Boss' in the list of make-up alternatives that this fulfilled the intent of that list.

So you support Supervising Producer, as well?

Of course I would. But supervising producer is a functional equivalent to executive producer and not to producer.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 2,759
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Quoting Unicus69:
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Sorry, I'm still confused as to how to vote. There are too many unwritten rules that are allowed by some and unwritten Invelos acceptance precedents to follow.


It has become a mine field and I honestly don't know how to fix it.  I tried to solve the bad wording we had in the old credit rules...no 'credits to include' column...but it seems I replaced one problem with another.  As a parser, I should have known better, but I missed it.  Unfortunately, Ken missed it as well.  I, and a few others, have suggested possible fixes but, so far, no joy.

I did not miss it and posted a warning in the beta forum (or was it the rules committee forum?) before 3.5 has been released.

But anyway, Invelos could solve the problem by officially allowing functional equivalents. I have posted my attempt of a wording proposal to the rules committee forum as well.

EDIT: Added links to my old posts. Both of them are in the rules committee forum. So you might no be able to access those posts.
 Last edited: by RHo
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
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If "Makeup Supervisor" is an exact synonym to "Head Make-Up Artist" and "Lead Makeup Artist", in other words -correct me if I'm wrong- the chief makeup artist and not just someone  supervising others who are actually doing the job, then I'd say it is contributable and that the omission in the "Credited As" column is just a slip. But that "if" should be documented and, if so, the omission should be corrected ASAP.

@Surfeur:
Any rule can and sometimes has to be interpreted. That's what the Screeners do: rule interpretation.
We are all entitled to have opinions and make polls and then like Unicus said vote your conscience, but ultimately "interpretation" and decisions are up to them.
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting RHo:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting tweeter:
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I've contributed a number of Make-up Supervisors and as a rule i include that credited role in my notes.

Every time i've encountered it the role was listed right where the Chief/Lead/Dept. Head/Head Make-up person would be, just ahead of the Make-up Artists.

This is usually about as far as i stray from the reservation when making credit decisions but it just seemed so obvious that with so many synonyms for 'Boss' in the list of make-up alternatives that this fulfilled the intent of that list.

So you support Supervising Producer, as well?

Of course I would. But supervising producer is a functional equivalent to executive producer and not to producer.


I daresay that Executive Producers would not agree with this statement! 

If they were equivalent, why would both credits be listed in the same episode?

Maybe because they are in fact DIFFERENT and not EQUIVALENT

Not that it actually matters.  The Rules make zero allowances for functional equivalents. 
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
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@Surfeur:
Any rule can and sometimes has to be interpreted.


Ahhh !!! That's new and I'm happy to read that... There are many rules, other then crew roles, that need some common sense in front of particular cases... But does everybody, wanting to add crew roles not in the list, agree with what you say ????
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 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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I knew you had not had an epiphanty. The problem is that you do not understand is that your common sense usually runs counter to most others. Common senses does not have a universal; meaning.

You disappointed me, but you did not surprise me. The tiger can't change his stripes, you still want SurfeurProfiler,

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDaddy DVD
Lost in Translation
Registered: March 14, 2007
Netherlands Posts: 2,366
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All Supervisors should be contributable. Now tell me why it's perfectly OK to add a Supervising Film Editor if he's the only principal editor (it's not in the role or credited as columns either), but suddenly a Supervising Producer or Makeup Supervisor are not? It doesn't make sense.
Martin Zuidervliet

DVD Profiler Nederlands
 Last edited: by Daddy DVD
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting RHo:
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Of course I would. But supervising producer is a functional equivalent to executive producer and not to producer.

Not that it actually matters.  The Rules make zero allowances for functional equivalents. 

Is the there, because you do not like it that the rules make zero allowance, or because I would support supervising producer as a functional equivalent if the rules would allow functional equivalents?

IMO supervising producer is between the producer and executive producer. It's something like the supervisor of the executive producers. This makes him a functional equivalent to executive producer like the  supervising art director is a functional equivalent to art director for our purposes. But I do agree that as of today the rules do not make any allowance.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting RHo:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting RHo:
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Of course I would. But supervising producer is a functional equivalent to executive producer and not to producer.

Not that it actually matters.  The Rules make zero allowances for functional equivalents. 

Is the there, because you do not like it that the rules make zero allowance, or because I would support supervising producer as a functional equivalent if the rules would allow functional equivalents?

IMO supervising producer is between the producer and executive producer. It's something like the supervisor of the executive producers. This makes him a functional equivalent to executive producer like the  supervising art director is a functional equivalent to art director for our purposes. But I do agree that as of today the rules do not make any allowance.


Please tell us where you gleaned this little bit of information (what I bolded above)?

Based on everything that I know, a Supervising Producer supervises PRODUCERS, not executive producers.

As I've stated numerous times, I do not believe in allowing "functional equivalents", period.  If we want a rolename to be allowed in DVDP, we need to convince Ken to add it to the crew table.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
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Hal's right - in terms of hierarchy a Supervising Producer lies between the Exec and a normal producer and so doesn't fit comfortable in either category. Ideally a third option really needs to be added to the program for Supervising Producers.
Though I have to admit I quite like the idea of functional equivalents. It would certainly settle all the different variable title arguments we have. But in the case of Supervising Producers functional equivalents wouldn't help.
 Last edited: by northbloke
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