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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Vote on Hong Kong/Asian movie actor 'community' name! |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Had Family Name been intended, then Family Name would have been used.
Again: had "First Word", "Middle Word(s)", "Last Word" been intended, that would have been used. It wasn't.
Quote:
you are one of those users intent on always applying his interpretation to everything whether it has any basis or not and you are unwilling to accept any kind of guidance
Is that the same unwillingness to accept guidance you regularly display (like here, for instance, or later in the "20th" vs. "Twentieth" debacle) when you keep voting according your own personal preferences in direct violation of Ken's explicit rulings? That is a problem indeed. Tim: That was looked at and discarded, in favor of using Name. But keep trying, you weren't involved. All you can offer is an ill-informed opinion. And your willfullness to interpret. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
But if some people think that the "last name" field should uniquely be used to record the family name, then they should also want the ", Jr." suffix not to be there, because ", Jr." has nothing to do with the family name, it's a suffix to the given name used to distinguish "John" from his son "John junior". All the more reason for a single name field, I'd say: then that issue would be moot as well. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting paulb_99: Quote:
But would you change the order of this credit had there been one name field? The fields are in the order first name, last name, middle name. I have to change the order of almost every credit which I have split into the three fields. Have a look at the "edit crew/cast member" windows. The resulting credit in the credit list is defined by the credited as field whenever the default credit constructed from the name fields does not match the screen. In other words, we have three name fields which are in no particular order but have a defined semantic meaning. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Last Name does not mean Family Name. In the English language last name is a synonym to family name and surname. Look it up in your dictionary. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
If it were to mean FAMILY name we would have used FAMILY name. If I remember correctly the program has been developed first by Intervocative and the by Invelos. The programmer of those companies had to choose the field label. And as far as I know, you have not been involved in that process. So stop claiming that you have chosen the term last name in the program. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Last Name does not mean Family Name.
In the English language last name is a synonym to family name and surname. Look it up in your dictionary. I repeat rho, we don't use synonyms. If you know anything about Programming, which i seriously doubt, then you know that precision in languafge usage is critical, we did not use FAMILY name, we used LAST name. Stop tryingt to twist it so that you can CORRUPT the database. Ye it is CORRUPTION. You're imagined meanings and data are not useful or helpful to the database or to the Community. You have not even bothered to read all I have said, or else youm might take a different approach. But because of that ity is clear that you have a personal agenda, and that is to be able fictionalize the data to your hearts content. Go write a novel instead. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 862 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting paulb_99:
Quote:
But would you change the order of this credit had there been one name field?
The fields are in the order first name, last name, middle name.
I have to change the order of almost every credit which I have split into the three fields. Have a look at the "edit crew/cast member" windows.
The resulting credit in the credit list is defined by the credited as field whenever the default credit constructed from the name fields does not match the screen.
In other words, we have three name fields which are in no particular order but have a defined semantic meaning. Maybe you misunderstood, i'm not talking about the problems it may cause for you now (locally). I was asking whether, had there been one namefield, you'd change the order of the name just because you think or know they should be reversed. A credit of Tsui Hark of which you say it should be Hark Tsui. Would you change the order of the names in camparison to the actual credits just because you deem it incorrect. As i said before, my vote would be to for a single name field (no parsing discussions), and credit exactly as credited, using credited as where needed and using the CLT to find the common name Paul |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
...
You agree with the "one field" idea, thus I guess you don't really care to know what is first name or last name, but then you absolutely insist that we should spend all our energies documenting the genealogy of Chinese families? 
... to make myself clear. with the one-field-solution we don't need to take care about name orders, because the collactable on-screen-value is e.g. "Chow Yun-Fat"; totally independent from the information what's the persons given-name or family name. That means we just collecting "person's names AS CREDITED". Hence to that there is no need to document this. Mission accomplished, but with the consequence of losing name-part information (what's his/her given/familyname). But at the moment the System forced us to interprete this on-screen-credit-value into fields which has very clear meaning in there words; and the rules affirm us to interprete it exactly in this meaning of words (as you said "last name" don't mean "last word"). Therefore to follow the rules and not entering word-meaning-wrong data "Chow Yun-Fat" has to enter as ["Yun-Fat//Chow credited as "Chow Yun-Fat"]. But this needs documentation. But even documentaion won't save us from the next problem. Mixed-structure names. e.g.: Tony Leung Chiu-Wai and Tony Leung Ka-Fai. How would you enter such names without additional rules? (Tony and Chui-Wai and Tony and Ka-Fai are Given-Names, Leung is for both family-name; should we enter them as Tony Chui-Wai//Leung or Ka-Fei/Tony/Leung? without any documentation and additional rules this data becomes no meaning -> makes it useless) my personal temporary conclusion: So to make our lives not unnessecarily difficult we should swap the 3-name-filed structure into a single-"name in credit"-field (-> at the moment the "as credited"-field), because the majority seems not willing to pay the price of documentation to handle such data in a approriate way the database and it's fields requires... | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
...
There are people who know everything about Chinese names, and there are people who know everything about film companies and that Disney is a logo not the company name.
Most people don't, though.
Some others do know, but are not really interested in the distinction, because they care about the credits on screen and on the box more than about their ultimate meaning, so they will enter what they see anyway. Hi  it's nature that not everyone knows anything, thats why we crowd-source our wishdom here together that at the end we all together know Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
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"One field" could be a solution, but it would require man-hours of Ken's work and as a result we would lose the family name information bit for ALL actors, not just the Chinese one! What a deal!  I'd rather ask for a local "Chinese order" check box for those who are really interested in displaying the family name as last name. a simple check-box won't same us. see my Tony Leung Chiu-Wai example...  | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Mad: Sold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but as Enry noted i don't think it will stop users such as rho from still trying to submit their preference. Sorry, Rho, that's the way i see it, I don't see you arguing from any point of logic, I see you simply trying to argue what you want to do and how YOU want to do it. Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Enry:
Family Name is not Profikler terminology. Ideally we would have a Prefix AND a suffix field as well but...
Skip
Correct: Family Name is not Profiler terminology. But if some people think that the "last name" field should uniquely be used to record the family name, then they should also want the ", Jr." suffix not to be there, because ", Jr." has nothing to do with the family name, it's a suffix to the given name used to distinguish "John" from his son "John junior". I would absolutely follow and support this logic. So "Robert Downey, Jr" should better be entered as ["Robert Jr.//Downey" as credited as "Robert Downey, Jr."] | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Last Name does not mean Family Name.
In the English language last name is a synonym to family name and surname. Look it up in your dictionary. Yes in the English language they are used as synonyms. Yes we ORDINARILY use them as synonyms. NO we do not ALWAYS and UNIQUELY use them as synonyms. When it's not convenient for the program and database, we forget the synonyms and just follow the order on screen. For instance, Jr. is a suffix to the given name not to the family name, yet we enter it in the last name field. Why? For simplicity's sake, I suppose. Like Skip said, Family Name is not Profiler terminology. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting madacid: Quote:
Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Enry:
Family Name is not Profikler terminology. Ideally we would have a Prefix AND a suffix field as well but...
Skip
Correct: Family Name is not Profiler terminology. But if some people think that the "last name" field should uniquely be used to record the family name, then they should also want the ", Jr." suffix not to be there, because ", Jr." has nothing to do with the family name, it's a suffix to the given name used to distinguish "John" from his son "John junior".
I would absolutely follow and support this logic.
So "Robert Downey, Jr" should better be entered as ["Robert Jr.//Downey" as credited as "Robert Downey, Jr."] Are you really going to contribute ["Robert Jr.//Downey" as credited as "Robert Downey, Jr."] ? | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting paulb_99: Quote:
...
As i said before, my vote would be to for a single name field (no parsing discussions), and credit exactly as credited, using credited as where needed and using the CLT to find the common name
Paul Hi Paul, so you make the old "as credited"-field" to our new "role"-field and and changed the old 3 name-fields into a "common name"-field (for linking issues). So it seems you what the same as I do, don't we? | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
... Last Name does not mean Family Name...
Well, in this case, can you explain me why Ken chose to sort actors and crew lists by last name in his program. What would be the meaning of last name that wouldn't match with family name and justify to sort list using this field ? | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
...
Are you really going to contribute ["Robert Jr.//Downey" as credited as "Robert Downey, Jr."] ?
personally I would omit the Jr./Sr. part completely out of the name-section (except it's really a name -> documentation needed), because it's not a real part of his name. When his dad dies and he got a son named "Robert John" as well, then he is the Sr. and his son is the Jr.. so I would prefer to enter ["Robert//Downey" or "Robert/John/Downey" maybe in addition with BY=1965 if needed, credited as "Robert Downey, Jr."] | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs | | | | Last edited: by madacid |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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