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Vote on Hong Kong/Asian movie actor 'community' name!
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting ya_shin:
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Please ignore this post at will.

<off-topic rant>

Wow, things sure haven't changed. With Skip still not allowing discussion or ast least trying to understand the need for it I sure am glad I stopped caring about this issue...

</off-topic rant>

If you read this far, I apologize for this useless waste of forum space.

Achim;

Then you haven't read what I have said.. I have very carefully said that I do UNDERSTAND the issue, I have also further explained that we are trying to represent the ACTUAL On AScreen Credits. And I have even further said that when people stop whining, then maybe we can begin a serious discussion about how best to achieve what is desired WITHOUT violating the premise of the Rules, perhaps that is through a modification to the CLT system, perhaps it is something else. But as long as users keep chasing their tails without showing any comprehension that the base premise is to represent the On Screen data, then we can achieve NOTHING. It;'s all up to them. My position will NEVER change relative to the ACTUAL data.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting EnryWiki:
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
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It's not an even a real issue, it's been a long time since I saw someone trying to use Rho's interpretation.

It's just another one of those things that somebody wants to argue about every few months.

Skip


It is an issue, in that there are users entering the same credits in different ways, and all they think to be doing it per the rules (or, at least, not against them).
So, while I agree with you, and others, that Chinese names are to be entered in the same order as written, for the reasons I gave in other posts, I also see there is an issue that needs to be taken care of.
A clear statement by Ken would rule out different interpretations and reduce data splintering. And a "Chinese order" check box in the program might even make everybody happy. 


Has a clear statement from Ken stopped surfeur, Enry. I wish it had but....


Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
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Quoting 8ballMax:
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Quoting northbloke:
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Then explain why the cast and crew databases are sorted by last name in the actual program.


Probably cuz that's the format you've selected in Tools>Options>Defaults: Actor Name Format.

No, that affects how the name is displayed (Cruise, Tom vs. Tom Cruise) it does not affect how they are sorted. That is set by the program, and the program uses last name.
So the question still stands - if there is no cultural relevance in the fields, why did Ken choose to sort by last name?

Can anyone answer another question for me - if you asked an Asian person what their last name is, would they reply with their family or given name? I'm curious to know if "last name" is a Western only synonym.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting northbloke:
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Can anyone answer another question for me - if you asked an Asian person what their last name is, would they reply with their family or given name? I'm curious to know if "last name" is a Western only synonym.

Any of my Asian friends or co-workers who have immigrated from Asia have changed the order of their name for purposes here to conform to the American standard of putting the family name last. At home or informally, they have said their name is family name first, given name last. But for completing documents, they reverse the order and enter their family name as their last name.

I've done a lot of hiring in my day and I can say without a doubt that this is 100% the case across the board, in my experience. Even when identification documents presented to me showed the Asian order for the name, they always completed the form in the American order for the name.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting T!M:
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It's not about how it shows up in the CLT, it's about LINKING. The CLT is a rather simplistic tool - nothing else. The key issue here, the reason why this subject keeps coming up, is not because people are interested in building towards great CLT results, but because people want to link the credits of a particular person together. Having those different methods of entry for Helena Bonham Carter all show up in the CLT results does nobody any good when they don't link together, obviously. The same goes for the different methods of entry for Chow Yun-Fat (or Yun-Fat Chow).


Who said anything about linking?  I don't know what conversation you were reading but I wasn't talking about linking. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Quoting northbloke:
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Can anyone answer another question for me - if you asked an Asian person what their last name is, would they reply with their family or given name? I'm curious to know if "last name" is a Western only synonym.

Any of my Asian friends or co-workers who have immigrated from Asia have changed the order of their name for purposes here to conform to the American standard of putting the family name last. At home or informally, they have said their name is family name first, given name last. But for completing documents, they reverse the order and enter their family name as their last name.

I've done a lot of hiring in my day and I can say without a doubt that this is 100% the case across the board, in my experience. Even when identification documents presented to me showed the Asian order for the name, they always completed the form in the American order for the name.


Am I surprised by this, James, absolutely not. It also reinforces the premise of represent the data as you see it On Screen.

@ North:

Sorting of names is still not an Online issue, it is a local issue and you are free locally to do as you wish. We have no Online sort capability.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
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Quoting Addicted2DVD:
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personally I would prefer the single name field along with the rule as it is (exactly as on screen) over a "Chinese Order" checkbox... as you will still have to know when to use that checkbox as it has already been said that some of the actors use a western standard for their names.

But as I said... that is just my


Well, I guess that check box would be local.
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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It would have to be, Enry.

While I like the single-name field idea, I am not sure it will solve the problem. There will still be those who would argue over it, I am afraid. I would hope not, but I have seen enough to be skeptical.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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[...]
Even when identification documents presented to me showed the Asian order for the name, they always completed the form in the American order for the name.


So, the form and the document didn't "link"   
-- Enry
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Unicus69:
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Quoting RHo:
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This is the same flaw we have with Western credits for example Mrs. Bonham Carter. How can we expect the 'regular' users to know that Bonham is part of the last name and not her middle name? You already know the answer: documentation.

It is not the same flaw.  Whether we parse it 'Helena/Bonham/Carter', 'Helena/ /Bonham Carter', 'Helena Bonham/ /Carter' or 'Helena Bonham Carter/ / ' the name will alwasy display as 'Helena Bonham Carter' and will always show up in the CLT.

Using your method for Asian names, 'Chow/ /Yun-Fat' and 'Yun-Fat/ /Chow' will NOT display the same and will NOT show up, together, in the CLT.

That's not the point you have made before. Of course those two flaws are different in that aspect. But your previous post has addressed a different aspect. You have asked how 'regular' users can know what to do. And I have responded that we deal with similar problems with documentation. A 'regular' user does not know how to parse Bonham Carter correctly the same way as he doesn't know in which field to store Chow. But an educated user can document the proper way and explain it to the 'regular' user.
 Last edited: by RHo
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Unicus69:
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Quoting RHo:
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Yes, this is a credit variant of the same names. Or in other words a variant of the how the names of a person are ordered in the credit. A perfect candidat for the credited as field.

Sorry, but this is logic created to support your opinion.  His name is 'Chow Yun-Fat'.  The credit reads 'Chow Yun-Fat'.  There is no name variant here.  Now, a credit of 'Chow Yun Fat' would be a name variant.

The credit reads "Chow Yun-Fat". His last name from the credit is "Chow". His first name is "Yun-Fat". Profiler composes the string "Yun-Fat Chow" from those fields. The result does not match the credit. Therefore we use the credited as field with "Chow Yun-Fat". Actually it's quite easy.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Yes, Rho it is quite easy. Simply enter it as you SEE it On Screen, do whatever you want locally and you are finished. Once you stop going on, then maybe we discuss possible ways to achieve what you want. But not as long...

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
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Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Quoting northbloke:
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Can anyone answer another question for me - if you asked an Asian person what their last name is, would they reply with their family or given name? I'm curious to know if "last name" is a Western only synonym.

Any of my Asian friends or co-workers who have immigrated from Asia have changed the order of their name for purposes here to conform to the American standard of putting the family name last. At home or informally, they have said their name is family name first, given name last. But for completing documents, they reverse the order and enter their family name as their last name.

I've done a lot of hiring in my day and I can say without a doubt that this is 100% the case across the board, in my experience. Even when identification documents presented to me showed the Asian order for the name, they always completed the form in the American order for the name.

The question would be: If they have to fill out a form with two fields, one labelled first name and one labelled last name, what would they write into each field? The order of those fields does not really matter. Assume that the two fields are on two different lines (as it is in profiler's edit cast/crew member window)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting RHo:
Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
Can anyone answer another question for me - if you asked an Asian person what their last name is, would they reply with their family or given name? I'm curious to know if "last name" is a Western only synonym.

Any of my Asian friends or co-workers who have immigrated from Asia have changed the order of their name for purposes here to conform to the American standard of putting the family name last. At home or informally, they have said their name is family name first, given name last. But for completing documents, they reverse the order and enter their family name as their last name.

I've done a lot of hiring in my day and I can say without a doubt that this is 100% the case across the board, in my experience. Even when identification documents presented to me showed the Asian order for the name, they always completed the form in the American order for the name.

The question would be: If they have to fill out a form with two fields, one labelled first name and one labelled last name, what would they write into each field? The order of those fields does not really matter. Assume that the two fields are on two different lines (as it is in profiler's edit cast/crew member window)

         

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting RHo:
Quote:
The question would be: If they have to fill out a form with two fields, one labelled first name and one labelled last name, what would they write into each field? The order of those fields does not really matter. Assume that the two fields are on two different lines (as it is in profiler's edit cast/crew member window)

They would put their family name into the field labeled "last name".
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 2,759
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
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It would have to be, Enry.

While I like the single-name field idea, I am not sure it will solve the problem. There will still be those who would argue over it, I am afraid. I would hope not, but I have seen enough to be skeptical.

Skip

A single name field would solve the issue for me. I do agree that Mr. Chow's full name is "Chow Yun-Fat". And I insist that his last name is "Chow" and his first name is "Yun-Fat" no matter of the order of the words in his full name.

And a single name field would definitely solve the middle name issues like the one  of Mrs. Bonham Carter for everyone.
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