Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

  Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 8 9 10 11  Previous   Next
Maid in Manhattan (Locked)
Author Message
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 3,480
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
It's not an issue of completeness. Your contribution wasn't incomplete. It was inaccurate because you changed a correct name to match 'as credited' when it shouldn't have been changed. The name was already the person's 'common name' or 'linking name'. You should have just changed John Hughes' 'credited as' since you were entering 'as credited' info.

I don't blame you for not knowing about the alias in advance of your contribution, although were I the contributor, I would have researched why the profile contained John Hughes where it should say Edmund Dantes before I changed it. But once you knew, then it needs to get fixed.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
prev. known as ya_shin
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Taiwan, Province of China Posts: 3,436
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collection
Skip, the profile was complete with your knowledge, yes.

James, if I would have seen the credits without not knowing about the alias thing, I would have done the same thing as Skip.

So, after the contribution James saw the broken link (as he was aware of the alias) and wanted to report it to Skip. Question is, how to do it, using normal means. making a comment while voting is the way. Now there are two options: comment on Yes or comment on No. As several people have mentioned here, they often don't bother to look at Yes votes (and why would they?), so the natural choice is a No vote to get the contributors attention... (which was obviously achieved beyond expectations).
Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
You are still placing a demand upon me that I believe is inappropriate James.

The FIRST line of the Rules says

"Take Crew Credits from the film credits only; list names exactly as they are in the credits."

Same as always

You are making a determination that YOU are not empowered to make, and placing a demand upon another user that is totally inappropriate. I suggested to you a more appropriate method, but you chose not to act on it. The ONLY person that can tell me to spend more time is Ken and I hardly think he will do that. And you know me James, Ross said it's a 15 second change, not for me I will research and document ANY such change, you didn't even try to provide me any data to back up your claim, you expected me to spend more of MY time, while you held a Contribution hostage. I am sorry, james, completely unacceptable position on your part, especially in view of the fact that there were other things you could have done that would have been better received.

As I said YOU don't have the power to demand more of me or any other user, only Ken can request that of me, and I would be shocked if he did that, but I would comply. But I will not comply with what I view as an unreasonable demand from a user.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting ya_shin:
Quote:
Skip, the profile was complete with your knowledge, yes.

James, if I would have seen the credits without not knowing about the alias thing, I would have done the same thing as Skip.

So, after the contribution James saw the broken link (as he was aware of the alias) and wanted to report it to Skip. Question is, how to do it, using normal means. making a comment while voting is the way. Now there are two options: comment on Yes or comment on No. As several people have mentioned here, they often don't bother to look at Yes votes (and why would they?), so the natural choice is a No vote to get the contributors attention... (which was obviously achieved beyond expectations).


LOL, Achim, I have seen those comments. But you know me do you really think i don't follow up on virtually everything. About the only thing I don't follow is positive votes I have cast, which is one reason why I say if I make a mistake please let me know, so I can fix it, but I track everything right through the entire process. I am not the average user, but that's my little cross to bear.

It is not I that is being unreasonable, I have made now TWO suggestions on a better way to handle handle this. And I have yet to see james, simply say maybe you have a point Skip, next time I will do it differently. All he continues to do is defend what to is not only an indefensible position, but trying to take on a power as Rule interpreter that he does not posses. We can all learn from this thread, even me.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
prev. known as ya_shin
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Taiwan, Province of China Posts: 3,436
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collection
I don't see that James need to do anything differently next time. I know you, James knows you too. But why is there a need to do stuff differently from one user to the other. A No vote catches attention, which it did, and should then prompt the contributor to take action. No problem here at all.
Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Not in my view, in this case, James was trying to force an action that I am not required to take, at least not on his say so as I have described all to adequately. I do not make any assumptions about names, I will document and verify it, which requires additional time of me, James does not have the right to demand that, which as I have said is the way I view his action a demand for more time. There are actions he could have taken that would have worked better, as I have also outlined. James was trying to force something he does not have the right to do, it is that simple, and furthermore he maintained that stance even after I suggested a better way. My interpretation, James was lazy and wanted me to do the work for him and decide he was going to hold the Contribution hostage to get it, I base that on his flat out refusal to change AFTER I gave him an option that would be better received.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 3,480
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
The FIRST line of the Rules says

"Take Crew Credits from the film credits only; list names exactly as they are in the credits."

Same as always

That's for the 'credited as' portion of a person's name. It doesn't cover a change to the person's name. That's covered by the rule that I know Unicus and I and perhaps others have quoted over and over in this thread.


Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
You are making a determination that YOU are not empowered to make,

I'm fully allowed to vote.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
and placing a demand upon another user that is totally inappropriate.

You make demands on me with my contributions, so I don't understand the problem. Bad data is bad data is what you always tell me.


Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
I suggested to you a more appropriate method, but you chose not to act on it.

Putting a 'no' vote comment into a 'yes' vote comment? Hardly effiicient. I never look at the votes on my contributions that have no 'no' votes. Others have said the same for themselves. It's not a viable alternative.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
you didn't even try to provide me any data to back up your claim,

I voted 'no' and put my comment in the 'no' vote and within minutes I noticed you had started this thread. I didn't know you had a problem until I saw my name in "Today's Topics". Even though we have our PMs blocked right now, you have my email address. You have my phone number.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
you expected me to spend more of MY time,

Nothing you haven't frequently asked me to do with my contributions and nothing you haven't directed me to demand of other people's contributions. 

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
while you held a Contribution hostage.

My vote is just my vote. It holds nothing hostage.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
I am sorry, james, completely unacceptable position on your part, especially in view of the fact that there were other things you could have done that would have been better received.

Since when have you ever cared how bad data is pointed out? I think my 'no' vote comment was about as nice as they come.

Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
But I will not comply with what I view as an unreasonable demand from a user.

Bad data is bad data.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
As I said James. It was As credited and YOU don't have the Power to pretend that you know the answer and expect me to take what could be sveral hours of my time to document and verify the information which you know I will do. Only Ken has the authority to say Skip this is what I want you to do, and frankly I don't think he will say that. I think he would say James, if you want to create the link you should do so. It is really that simple. It's not bad data.

I am working an audit, right now, that requires a name change, Because of this discussion I decided to check it and see if I could verify an Credited As, it certainly looks likely, BUT guess what I can't so I am going with As Credited, I will not assume that just because it looks like it that they are the same guy.

I am trying very hard to rationally discuss this, James. But in all seriousness in my opinion you overstepped. There are better ways to have handled this. And I have suggested TWO, as I told Achim and I meant it. I have seen what other users have said about not following up, sadly that explains a lot, but if you had thought about it for just a few seconds, i find it hard to believe that you would believe that I would not look for a comment left in any area Yes, No or Maybe if we had Maybe notes. I am NOT the average user, and proud of it, thank you very much. You also know that, except for certain times, I am very fast on response as do most users, I typically will give a user a response in PM within minutes, but if it's at the right time, it could be a few hours. But I will always respond and you know that so why should it surprise you that I found your vote very quickly after you cast it and responded to it. And yes initially was VERRY angry, I am not so angry now, but that does not mean my position has changed it has not.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Going to bed now, James. Think about it.

I don't want to fall asleep on keyboard and giveyou the chance to use my 50KV keyboard zapper.  

BTW as I am fading here, you remember a couple of days ago youmentioned Rickk's comment about middle ground. I have suggested some middle ground.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 3,480
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
When you read the rule "Use the "As Credited" field where the person's name differs from the credited name", what does that mean to you?

EDIT: Okay, good night.

Questions to ponder:
Who has to follow the above rule?
Is it optional?
When does it not need to be followed?
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
 Last edited: by m.cellophane
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
Reg. Jan 27, 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 2,694
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
For DVDP 3.0, there are 2 pieces of information for each name, even though we only see 1 when they are the same. But to break it out:

Existing Profile:
Name: John Hughes <-- Correct
Credited as: John Hughes <--Incorrect

Contributed Profile #1:
Name: Edmund Dantes <--Incorrect
Credited as: Edmund Dantes <--Correct

Contributed Profile #2:
Name: John Hughes <--Correct
Credited as: Edmund Dantes <--Correct

In order to manage linking and 'as credited', both pieces need to be 'correct'.

The data was accurate, that IS the ONLY relevant issue here. I am done with this.

Actually, the data was inaccurate:

Each name has 2 parts now. (Well, it has 3 including birth year, but let's not go there right now... )

The existing profile had the correct name (John Hughes) but the incorrect AKA (John Hughes).

The existing name was 50% accurate. It gave everyone the right name but the wrong 'as credited'.

You changed the correct name (John Hughes) to an incorrect name (Edmund Dantes). This is where the error occurred.  It broke this rule: "Use the "As Credited" field where the person's name differs from the credited name."

You changed the incorrect AKA (John Hughes) to the correct AKA (Edmund Dantes). You did fix something here.

Your update was still 50% accurate, one good fix, another thing broken. It would have broken the existing linking to John Hughes, but it would have given everyone the correct 'as credited'.

Erik's update is 100% accurate. The link to John Hughes is maintained. The correct 'as credited' is provided.

We have a responsibility to manage 3 pieces of information now for a name:

  • The person's name

  • The credited name

  • The birth year when necessary

  • The credited name is the easy part. But that doesn't necessarily make the credited name correct for the person's name. In this case, it was inaccurate data in the name field.



    No, it isn't inaccurate.  The credited name is what appears in the cast list.  Period.  It is the only relevant piece of information.  It may or may not be what you consider to be that person's REAL name or birthdate, but that is personal preference on your part if you include that.  Everybody uses John Wayne as an example because his birth name is Marion Morrison.  Well, what most people don't realize is that he preferred John Wayne to Michael Marion Morrison.  It wasn't just a stage name for him, he changed it legally to John Wayne.  He got married under that name, and his kids are named using that name.  He lived his entire adult life AS John Wayne, and all that that implies.  It would be the height of ridiculousness to put his birth name in the database as his common name.  Just one example, but I'm sure you see what I mean.
    John

    "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
    Make America Great Again!
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
    Reg. Jan 27, 2002
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 2,694
    Posted:
    PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
    Quoting m.cellophane:
    Quote:
    I agree with your concept Unicus. The problem for Skip and I is that we're currently PM-impaired. That contributed to this dust up for sure.


    It shouldn't have.  If, when Skip entered that data, there was no indication of a link, then he is NOT at fault in anyway.  Nor is it his responsibility to revisit that profile just because somebody pops up and says there IS a link.  If you felt strongly enough that such a link existed, you should have just submitted the change yourself with the requisite proof.

    That would have avoided ALL of this BS that has since ensued.
    John

    "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
    Make America Great Again!
    DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantchibul
    formerly abrg923
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 462
    Posted:
    PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
    Quoting skipnet50:
    Quote:
    Well now we are back to the beginning. There is NOWHERE in the Rules that says our entries must be complete, else I would vote no on nearly everbody because after all they are not doing Full Audits. And as I explained in my discussion about studios if the user enters WDP and does not include BVHE, the Rules say to include the distributor if there is room. If James is correct, and I have yet to see Ken back him up on his interpretation, then I have to re-evaluate my own voting if the data is accurate but incomplete then I must vote No.

    I am sorry Unicus, that just seems completely wrong to me. There was as I outlined a way James could have handled it that would have gotten the deisred result. But no user has the right to demand more of any other user than he is willing to provide, as long as the data was correct, which it was.

    And allow me to point out that the rules still begin with

    "Take Crew Credits from the film credits only; list names exactly as they are in the credits."

    What offends me, Unicus is that Janmes and Lopek held a Contribution to try impose their will upon another user. They have the ability to go do the work dig up the documentation and add the non-existent linkage. James just wanted ME to go do moer work so he could get it as he wanted it, now maybe I am wrong I have never gotten a check from James that entitles him or anyone else to make that demand of a fellow volunteer.

    Skip


    THIS IS AN INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD! How are you "offended"?!?!
    "I am Andrew Ryan and I am here to ask you a question:
    Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow?

    No, says the man in Washington. It belongs to the poor.
    No, says the man in the Vatican. It belongs to God.
    No, says the man in Moscow. It belongs to everyone.

    I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
    different. I chose the impossible. I chose…
    Rapture."
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorlyonsden5
    Hello old friends!
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Reputation: High Rating
    Posts: 2,372
    Posted:
    PM this user
    I can't believe another couple of pages on this. Taking all the personalities out of it here is what we have.

  • Contributor submitted something in good faith, 100% accurate as far as he knew.

  • Voter was aware of something the contributor wasn't, voted no with a polite reason and explained the problem.

  • Contributor can take the info given to him and do with it whatever he wishes, including change the information, leave it, or withdraw it.


  • I still don't see the problem with this method. There are many voters who know something the submitter doesn't know. Conveying that info in a No vote is a great way to get it to both the contributor.

    A PM could be used, but there is no guarantee the submitter will read it. A yes vote comment could be used but again, not many of us read them. Using the No vote reason field not only puts the information out there for the submitter it also lets the screener know what is going on.

    With all the new features we have to rely on others to help us get the information correct. Based on posts here in the forum there are many who have jumped in and learned a lot about their new favorite feature. Let's not get upset with them if they point out something we aren't aware of. All it will do is encourage many of them not to say anything, lock their own info, and stay out of the contribution process. We don't need that.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
    Posted:
    PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
    There went the neighborhood.

    Skip
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorNadja
    Small and broken
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United Kingdom Posts: 775
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collection
    Just out of interest, Skip, would this thread exist if votes hadn't been made viewable to all?
      Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 8 9 10 11  Previous   Next