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Country of origin...?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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How are we looking at the "Country of Origin" field these days? The contribution rules state:

Quote:
Enter the country or countries in which the main feature's production company/companies are based, in the order they appear in the credits.

It's important to note that this rule explicitly points to the feature's production company/companies - not the theatrical release studio. And for good reason: after all, the theatrical release studio for a given film may not even be the same for various markets. I've read some old discussions about this, and the example that's given a lot is the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy. While theatrical release studio New Line Cinema is American, the production company on them is WingNut Films - which is a New Zealand company. The rules tell us to look at the production company/companies, not at the theatrical release studio, and as such, most (but not all) of the 'Lord of the Rings' profiles have New Zealand listed as it's sole CoO.

It is, however, not always easy for everyone to determine which are the theatrical release studio(s) and which are the production companies. If the credits state: "Company A and Company B present, in association with Company C, a Company D production", then what? Are the CoO's of Company A and Company B ignored, as their "Presents" credit makes them theatrical release studios? Is the CoO of Company C ignored, as it's technically still part of the "presenting" studios? Or are they all included, resulting in the fact the the CoO of the true primary production Company D is left out because there's no room left for it? Are we all on the same page as to where we take the CoO from, in such cases?

As someone with lots of discs from various regions and localities, I find this to be more and more problematic. Films that are released in various markets may be released by different theatrical release studios, and that isn't always done by merely pasting another animated vignette at the start of the movie - I've seen quite a number of examples where the actual film credits are amended, suddenly including a different theatrical release studio than the same film has in the same place on the DVD/Blu-ray-release of that same film in that country of origin. And that's just between large markets as the US and the UK. Home video releases by independent distributors in smaller countries, such as in The Netherlands where I happen to live, seem to have no problem to occasionally butcher the film credits and remove all trace of the original theatrical release studio, and either replace it with their own name, or leave it off altogether.

The bottom line is: when an American film distributor buys the US distribution rights to a fully completed, purely UK-produced film, then it doesn't suddenly become an American film. The CoO was, is and should stay "United Kingdom". Right? And if it's released in German theaters by yet another company, a German one, then it doesn't suddenly become a German film - then, too, it stays a UK film. Right? That, to me, is why the rules point to the feature's production company/companies for determining the CoO's, and not to theatrical release studios. Right? By all means, correct me if I'm wrong...

On the other hand, there are plenty of users that say: "Hey, I see an American company name on-screen, so I'll enter US as a CoO" - even if it's not remotely a US film. It's difficult to get everyone on the same page. I have huge amounts of specific examples where this leads to problems, but for now, let me sketch the one I ran into today. The film is 'Johnny English Strikes Again' - IMHO, primarily a British film, produced by British company Working Title. The credits read:

UNIVERSAL PICTURES and STUDIOCANAL present, in association with PERFECT WORLD PICTURES, a WORKING TITLE production

Universal Pictures is American, StudioCanal is French, Perfect World Pictures is Chinese, and Working Title is British. So how would you enter this film's CoO(s)? Someone actually submitted United States, France and China as CoO's, leaving out the UK, as there's no room for it. But again, to me, this is a primarily a British production. The fact that it even *got* a (minimal) theatrical release in the States was really merely an afterthought - it was always clear to the makers that this film would make it's money in other territories (read this article for further background). It seems very wrong to list this as US/France/China while it's really a British film. Looking at the contribution rules, which explicitly point to the feature's production company/companies, not the theatrical release studio(s) - which CoO's should we leave out? Are the CoO's of Universal Pictures and StudioCanal B ignored, as their "Presents" credit makes them out to be theatrical release studios? And is the CoO of Perfect World Pictures ignored, as it's technically still part of the "presenting" studios? Or not? Or are they all included, resulting in the fact the the CoO of the true primary production Working Title is left out because there's no room for it?

Examples are nice, and I can supply lots more, but I'm really looking for a more generic answer. I don't just want to be sure how to fill the field for this specific title, but I'd like a generic approach that we can apply to the next similar set of studio credits as well...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNexus the Sixth
Contributor since 2002
Registered: March 13, 2007
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I don't see where the rule is unclear. Enter the CoO of the production company/ies and nothing else. Sure, it might not always be clear what is what but it's either best effort or don't bother and leave it to someone else to fill in.
First registered: February 15, 2002
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting iPatsa:
Quote:
I don't see where the rule is unclear.

I don't either. It's just that I see lots of contributors handling this field *very* differently, which is why I thought I'd ask.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAlunH
Registered: February 19, 2012
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In the example you've given I'd say that as Universal and StudioCanal (in association with Perfect World Pictures) are presenting a film, they're clearly the distributors, and as the film they're presenting is by Working Title (because it's a Working Title production) then clearly Working Title are the production company, and the film's country of origin is therefore the UK.

Arrow (and their sub-label Nordic Noir) release a lot of European TV here in the UK, and the credits for a lot of them have many, many production companies (including the BBC), but that doesn't make (say) Engrenages anything other than French.

But this is academic because I'm usually in agreement with you over the rules.  Generally I find that there are a small group of contributors (you among them) who are exceptionally good at contributing profiles, but beyond that I don't have much faith at all.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
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Production companies only, so in your example UK is the sole CoO.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
Registered: October 22, 2015
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My interpretation is as follows:

In T!M's example, namely:
"Company A and Company B present, in association with Company C, a Company D production"

Company A = Theatrical Release Studio
Company B = Theatrical Release Studio
Company C = Production Company
Company D = Production Company

NOTE: film production credits are given to any company that made the film (in the above example, Company D) or name of the investment groups or companies that financed a substantial part of the film (in the above example, in association with Company C).

Accordingly, Country of Origin should be for production companies, Company C and Company D (in that order).
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
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So now we've got several users stating that the United Kingdom is the sole CoO for 'Johnny English Strikes Again', and one user, ObiKen, who feels that the CoO field should be filled with China and the United Kingdom, in that order.

The key difference in viewpoint is whether Company C, in "Company A and Company B present, in association with Company C, a Company D production", is seen as a production company or not. That can be argued both ways, and that's a big part of why I posted this. In the specific "Company A and Company B present, in association with Company C, a Company D production" format, I'm personally still not viewing Company C as a production company for our purposes - it's in the "Presents" camp to me, and therefore I'd ignore it. AlunH and dee1959jay seem to agree. So what now? How do we get everyone on the same page?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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As far as my knowledge of the English language reaches, the associated company is clearly associated to the distribution companies. Keeping in mind that there are no commas or colons in the credits the other way round does not form an English sentence:
Company A and Company B present: in association with Company C a Company D production
Does it?

Further more, according to the rulse we don't list associate producers with the credits. Why should we consider to list associated production companies with the studios?
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
 Last edited: by AiAustria
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNexus the Sixth
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The only part we need to concern ourselves with for the purpose of CoO is "a Company D production".
First registered: February 15, 2002
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
Registered: October 22, 2015
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What we are discussing is a film's opening credits, it is not viewed/interpreted as a sentence subject to rules of grammar, it is just a list of credits displayed in a certain order accepted by the movie industry, namely:

THEATRICAL DISTRIBUTION Company(s)
PRODUCTION Company(s)
DIRECTOR's Name (Film) or TITLE
MAIN MOVIE STAR(s)
etc

The example I quoted previously should have been written more accurately as follows:
  Company A and Company B Presents
  In Association With Company C
  A Company D Production

The credit of Theatrical Release Studio(s) ends at the word PRESENTS (or PRESENTATION). That's it. Finished.

Next comes the Production Company(s) credits and they are shown either as:
"A [Company] Production" (involved in actually making the film) OR "In Association With [Company]" (if they financed a substantial part of the film). Their order in the credits would be subject to contractual obligations.

The credit "in association with" is applicable to Production companies only in the opening credits, that is the industry standard.

Here are some recent opening credit examples to substantiate this point:

First Man (2018):
Universal Pictures presentation
In association with Dreamworks Pictures
In association with Perfect World Pictures

Is anyone prepared to say there are no production companies for this film?


Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom (2018):
Universal Pictures and Amblin Entertainment Present
In Association With Legendary Entertainment/Perfect World Pictures

Is anyone prepared to say there are no production companies for this film?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorAiAustria
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Quoting ObiKen:
Quote:
The credit "in association with" is applicable to Production companies only in the opening credits, that is the industry standard.

Any prove or documentation for this claim?
Complete list of Common Names  •  A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1)
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorDJ Doena
Registered: May 1, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
Quoting ObiKen:
Quote:
The credit "in association with" is applicable to Production companies only in the opening credits, that is the industry standard.

Any prove or documentation for this claim?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opening_credits#Common_opening_credits_order
Karsten
DVD Collectors Online

DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Might one use the copyright notice to help clarify?

---------------
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
Registered: October 22, 2015
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By industry standard, I mean the criteria followed by an industry to carry out an operation in their specific area of production.  For the movie industry, the generally accepted practice of displaying opening credits in a certain sequence is the practice that is followed by many members of the film industry.

In addition to DJ Doena's wikipedia reference above, the following online references explain the use of "in association with" in the opening credits:

https://newenglandfilm.com/magazine/2012/08/credits
https://web.archive.org/web/20101220075448/http://www.salon.com/entertainment/feature/1998/10/09feature.html

The only hard evidence I found regarding credit requirements from a production company came from Screen Australia:
https://www.screenaustralia.gov.au/getmedia/22a9d5e5-61ef-4abc-9d66-a6bcc4f4a17a/Screen-Australia-Credits-Policy.pdf

This document titled "Production Credit Policy - October 2018" describes in detail how the government investment agency, Screen Australia, should be credited in films (and other media).

In particular, it defines when and where it should be credited in the opening credits and what text should be used depending on how large their investment was compared to other investors. :
For Tier 1 (largest funder): Screen Australia and [other Tier 1 funders] present
For Tier 2 (2nd largest):    In association with Screen Australia and [other Tier 2]
For Tier 3 (3rd largest):    With support from Screen Australia and [other Tier 3]
For Tier 4 (4th largest):    With Screen Australia and [other Tier 4]

And this is just one production company negotiating its opening credits in a film (and don't forget there is also pre-presentation and closing credits that need to be negotiated).  Add unions and other company lawyers into the mix and you get credits that seem to go on for ever.

Please note Screen Australia has nothing to do with theatrical film distribution.

For Scottm:
Copyright is very important, more so from the Producer's point of view in securing funds for the film.  If the producer can lock-down all copyright/intellectual property issues early, it makes selling the movie production to potential investors that much easier.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
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Isn't it true that these "in association with ...." credits are usually referring to a company or organization which is providing funding but is not involved in the actual production work?
 Last edited: by dee1959jay
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorObiKen
Registered: October 22, 2015
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Correct, that is what I wrote on Feb 23 and Feb 24.

They are still viewed as production companies because their investment resulted in the production of a product called a movie.

There is one fundamental rule for movie production:
  NO money ==> NO movie
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